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Table Games Well, I just learned a good lesson at the craps table...

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by wrxrob, Jun 17, 2013.

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  1. wrxrob

    wrxrob High-Roller

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    If it's offered, ALWAYS play the fire bet when you're the shooter. I did not, and probably had one of the better rolls of my life. I came within one of hitting all of the points, which paid 249 to 1 for everyone else that had bet on the fire. Out of 8 of us at the table, 5 people had each played $2 on the fire, and were paid $500 each. I got nothing (and a friend of a fire bet winner had the nerve to try and bum $20 off of me while waiting in line for the cashier:grrr:).

    Looks like I also need to learn to press my bets. Since I was the last shooter of the night, they shut down that table, so everyone had to color out. I was the only one to color with less than $1,000. One guy colored $2700, while the others were between $1100 and $1700. I colored around $300 (not bad for a $40 buy-in at a $5 table). I was hitting the number 8 exceptionally well, to the point that my neighbor had $300 on the 8 before it was all said and done.:eek:

    Earlier in the night, I was the shooter twice. Each time, I played the fire, and immediately sevened out the first roll after establishing the point. Since I figured the same might occur again, I stopped with the fire bet. Kicking myself now.
     
  2. Keyser Soze

    Keyser Soze Low-Roller

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    Actually, you were wise to avoid the fire bet prop. The house edge is over 20%.
     
  3. Dwayne108

    Dwayne108 Tourist

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    I feel your pain.:cry:
     
  4. Bazzito52

    Bazzito52 Low-Roller

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    “Looks like I also need to learn to press my bets” was the REAL lesson you learned.

    There’s a terrific book that has all you need to know about getting the most out of your play, “The Dice Doctor” by Sam Grafstein. It’s simply the best book about how to win at the craps tables ever put to print.

    http://www.gamblersbookclub.com/THE-DICE-DOCTOR-REVISED.html

    Sam’s premise is exactly as you described – taking advantage of hot rolls and winning many times the money than players who don’t properly increase their bets. He calls it “getting the money.”

    I’ve bought every edition of this book since its first publication over 30 years ago and haven’t seen any method that compares to Sam’s for any type of betting.

    Although Sam didn’t live to see the Fire Bet in play, he’d surely recommend, as did Keyser Soze, that you not make it due to its high house edge, but he’d readily acknowledge that any bet can win time and time again. And when you see five other players cash big on a major sucker bet its enough to “turn the Pope into a Protestant,” as Sam likes to say!

    Personally, I think that making the fire bet when you are the shooter is a perfectly acceptable move. You just might hit a big payday one of these days. As an “all day” bet? Not so much.

    Anyway, have a look at this book and see if it doesn’t improve you play.

    It’s been a while since I’ve recommended the book on this board (which invariably brings out the scoffers and know-it-alls), so I’ll make the same offer to you that I’ve offered to others: If you buy “The Dice Doctor,” read it from cover to cover, and use one of Sam’s methods as described over a period of time and you don’t feel that it’s improved your play, send me a private message and I’ll refund your $15.00.

    Good Luck!
     
    NFL Divisional Playoffs!!
  5. tkriger

    tkriger Tourist

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    Looks like that book is only $10 for the kindle ediiton on Amazon. I might pick it up, if no other reason than I enjoy reading about different strategies, I just hope its not a 'learn to set and throw the dice' book..I have no interest in practicing throwing dice for hours at a time.
     
  6. D in the D

    D in the D Low-Roller

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    While fully recognizing the house edge on the fire bet, I still play 5 bucks on it when i am shooting.
     
  7. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    unfortunately I've found that lessons like this are learned, but don't really come in handy because something like this likely will never happen to you again. you'll put that $5 on the fire bet every time and blow thousands over the years chasing the payout that never comes. unfortunately, that's always how it seems to be.
     
  8. DeMoN2318

    DeMoN2318 The DERS

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    Just bought it!
     
  9. Royal Flusher

    Royal Flusher Savvy Gambler

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    I remember when this book was recommended before on the board. I bought it, read it and used it.

    It totally changed the way I approach craps and I have had my top 3 winning session because of the methods in the book for pressing bets.

    Previously, the most I'd ever made on a session was around $100, hit my first +$500 cashout thanks to the Doctor.

    Highly recommended.
     
  10. Jersey_Bill

    Jersey_Bill High-Roller

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    Also agree. There are tons of Kindle books on Amazon promising ways to help you clean up at craps - but they barely go beyond the basic rules of the game and offer widely-known and fairly useless advice. The Dice Doctor is different because it focuses on betting strategies - and he assumes you know enough to be competent in playing the game.

    I read it a few months ago and my next time out (last week) helped me double (and more) my buy in for what was probably my best winning session in memory. Not my best shooting session. Not my best duration session. But my best winning session.

    His advice is sound. Just like Blackjack, there is understanding the game and then there is understanding how to bet on the game. Only the latter will help you walk away a real winner....

    JZB
     
  11. mike_m235

    mike_m235 Tourist

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    You are changing nothing in the house advantage by pressing your bets. All you're doing is upping your variance. So yeah, you'll have a bigger win on a good session. But you'll have it at the expense of smaller winning sessions more often.

    For example, say you press after 2 points. You bet $10 with full odds and win, $10 with full odds and win, then $20 with full odds and lose. You've basically lost most of your win with that third bet.

    If you stayed flat, you'd have finished with more money.

    I'm not suggesting that you do or don't press. Personally I press hard. All I'm saying is that it's not a magical winning formula, and any book that tries to show you the 'right' way to play craps is itself crap.
     
  12. yoyoseven

    yoyoseven Low-Roller

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    Any strategy can produce a mountain of chips. It still takes luck, and in craps, luck is defined as being at the table when the particular strategy you employ is hitting. But I agree that without pressing you'll never really make the "big score" that craps players are looking for.

    I usually buy in for $300, where my buddy buys in for $200. I start pressing earlier and harder than he does. Many times we've both lost our buy-ins after a few shooters. Sometimes he'll last a bit longer or eke out a small win where I lose it all quickly. But, when we catch a hot shooter, I make out like a bandit, while he slowly makes a profit. I look at it this way - losing $300 instead of $200 isn't much of a difference to me, but winning $1000 is way better than winning $250.

    Different strokes.
     
  13. mike_m235

    mike_m235 Tourist

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    I've also been at a table with my wife, where I was playing bigger and pressing hard and she was playing $10 pass with $10 odds, and she won more relative to her starting buy in than I did (ie, I doubled my money, she more than tripled hers) -- to be specific, I bought in for $1000 and left with $1900. She bought in with $100 and left with $390.

    Like you said, the best strategy is the one that's hitting.
     
  14. wrxrob

    wrxrob High-Roller

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    Thank you! If I buy the kindle version, do you still make money? It sounds like a good read worth considering. :)
     
  15. LV_Bound

    LV_Bound VIP Whale

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    I have two "duh" moments as well.
    It is easy to get caught up and so focused on shooting that you forget to manage your bets.

    Some really good replies here.
    Any formula will probably work at least once. :eek:

    I like to toss $1 for me and $1 for the table on the Fire bet. Sure long odds but for $2 it adds just a little more excitement to the game.
     
  16. Nittany1

    Nittany1 VIP Whale

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    I have actually shot the full Fire Bet,all six points, 2 seperate times and did not have a bet on it either time.
    I made way over 10K on the roll both times so it really did not bother me.
    I only play it occaisonally as a two way bet if the table is hot.
    It would have bothered me if I always played it and forgot to those times but that is not the case.
     
  17. Llew

    Llew Low-Roller

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    Pressing just reduces the chance of a winning session while increasing the amount you make from winning sessions. But it does so at the cost of increased theoretical losses; in other words, you'll lose more from missing those small wins than you gain from blowing out the big wins.

    But winning big feels better and thus increases the entertainment value of the game.
     
  18. numeno

    numeno VIP Whale

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    First, the 20% HE on the firebet is an ok argument against it, but in the long run the amount you lose based on this is pretty trivial.



    I also stress the downside of pressing in craps. Yes, you could have turned that $1000 roll into a $3000 roll. If you do that, it also means that many of your sessions where you simply break even you will be down $400 very quickly. Many times I've turned $200 into $1500, but also many times I've turned $200 into $0 in under 10 minutes. Pressing simply makes the wins bigger and the losses quicker. It won't make you win more money.


    Now I still press because it is entertaining to me. I just can't sit there with a $5 pass line bet and be content. I envy those that can do that. If your goal is to sit on a table for a few hours, make sure your bankroll can support your pressing. I love doing hit and runs on tables. I want to get in for 5-8 shooters and hope I hit a good one within there. If I want to sit on a table for a long time I head to BJ. Too many enticing bets out on that craps table to get me to sit there for a while.
     
  19. fadetheseven

    fadetheseven High-Roller

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    Just another echo of points already made above. Pressing bets increases your volatility, which results in quicker losing or winning sessions. If you flat bet without pressing you may miss out on major heaters but you will also go broke slower.

    You have to decide if you want more time at the table and want to preserve bankroll or try to cash in on a big hit without regard to play-time or preservation of bankroll. I usually try to walk a line between the 2, satisfying my degenerate gambler and semi-responsible selves. A lot of conservative press strategies use a collect-press progression and even incorporate a regression when you get to a pre-determined level.

    Even after 10years of playing dice, I'm still figuring out where I want to settle. I love craps for the potential to turn $300 into $3000 on one monster hand. I recently drastically reduced my craps play time because I had so many losing sessions. I might try to bet more numbers but go collect-collect-press. I just have to make peace with the fact that I won't make $3000 in one hand and settle with a smaller potential jackpot. Honestly, starting at my usual $5 place bets, I've only hit on $1000+ hands 4 times in the past 10 years. How many times have I lost my $200-500 buy in? Too many to count.
     
  20. Joe

    Joe VIP Whale

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    About 10 years ago I tried a betting scheme where the goal was to pocket one unit of the bet. It actually worked and most sessions I walked away with a profit. The trouble is, I didn't win much.

    I got bored with the system because there was not enough action and oh yea, because I'm a degenerate gambler. Back to line bets and a couple of place bets. Screw the one unit profit.
     
    Christmas
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