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Video Poker VP - Does Bet Denom Matter?

Discussion in 'Video Poker' started by kollegekreed, May 21, 2016.

  1. kollegekreed

    kollegekreed Tourist

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    Possibly an off the wall question, but...

    I have heard in the past that on a machine like Wheel of Fortune, where you have to bet "three" to win the progressive pot, the outcome of the spin will be different depending on what you bet. If you only bet "two" and you get the progressive hit and want to kill yourself, you shouldn't, because if you had bet three you probably wouldn't have gotten the same outcome.

    So, is that the same for VP? IE, if you bet one credit, may it be more likely to get a 4 of a kind than on 5 credits? And, would it be five different hands you would be dealt depending on the denom of the bet?
     
  2. grosx2

    grosx2 VIP Whale

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    All hands are equally likely to happen regardless of credits bet, but royal "jackpot" payout is only with 5 credits bet.

    Always bet 5 credits.
     
  3. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    For most practical purposes, @grosx2 is right. But technically, video poker machines are legally required to spit random cards from a fair poker deck at all times in most states. And in that case, the only way the final hand probabilities can change is by the players' own decisions. One time for the hell of it, I lost 50 hands in a row a penny at a time in Tunica on purpose. The machine cared less and let me lose my 50 cents. An example of a strategy change via bet size, if you bet one credit vs. 5 credits, it becomes correct to hold 4 to a flush over 3 to a royal flush. If you play 9/6 JoB optimally, max coins should get quads slightly LESS with 1 in 423.27 probability vs. 1 in 423.15 if you bet 1-4 coins.

    As for the other question you're asking though, when you hit the royal betting 1 to 4 coins, would it have hit using 5 coins? Probably not. All cards dealt/drawn depend on the deal/draw button. But like grosx2 said, it's often better to play 5 thanks to the better payout on the royal flush (800 for 1 vs. 250 for 1).
     
  4. Royal Flusher

    Royal Flusher Savvy Gambler

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    Please tell me you don't play less than max coins Trig...

    BTW playing less than the max reduces the long-term payback of Jacks by about 1.2%.
     
  5. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    I have at times to save money at bartops when bartenders aren't looking, but I tend not to now to avoid a $62.50 kick in the nuts. I haven't one coined in a couple of years. Going 0 for lifetime on quarter royals is pretty rough though.
     
  6. JeJas

    JeJas VIP Whale

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    I often just play one coin, to save bankroll.
     
  7. spdandpwr

    spdandpwr Low-Roller

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    VP has been a losing proposition for me lol. I like that it isn't mindless, but just once I want to know what a Royal Feels like
     
  8. BayouBengal

    BayouBengal VIP Whale

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    The amount you bet doesn't determine the cards dealt. In general you should always bet 5 coins (max coin) at whatever denom best suits your bankroll.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  9. Royal Flusher

    Royal Flusher Savvy Gambler

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    What really makes me crazy is seeing people playing 4 credits.

    I tend to see this on bartops and I presume it is because people want to play something they can understand - $1.00 instead of $1.25.
     
  10. FuzzyDiceCraps

    FuzzyDiceCraps High-Roller

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    Once upon a time I worked on an auditing project evaluating a particular method by which slot and video machines determine outcomes. A couple disclaimers - this project was limited to one single client and may not be indicative of the industry as a whole, and this project occurred about 5 years ago and therefore may be significantly outdated. We were auditing for compliance-related matters. The algorithm which this particular client's systems used to determine the outcome of any given game took into consideration of number of external variables, one of which was the units bet. However the units bet did not alter the chances of a given outcome, it was simply another factor plugged into the RNG. Other factors included time of day and number of inputs from the player (e.g. when you touch the screen and make the little stars appear). The way these machines were set up if you bet one unit or five units the result would be different, but betting five did not increase your chances of winning (other than making you eligible for increased jackpot award) any more than any other decision. All of these variables were dumped into the algorithm gumbo to help ensure a completely random result.

    So changing your units would change your result, just as waiting a few seconds to order another drink would result in a different outcome than spinning immediately.

    At least for this particular instance, I can say what you have been told is correct...at least in terms of the "what could have been" scenarios we tend to often play with ourselves. I want to stress there were also a number of internally determined variables the system considered, meaning you could not manipulate the machine solely through external inputs.
     
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  11. spdandpwr

    spdandpwr Low-Roller

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    So basically even if you play perfect strategy, it's all luck because there are so many variables outside of your control.
     
  12. FuzzyDiceCraps

    FuzzyDiceCraps High-Roller

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    Well, VP by law (at least in Nevada and Ohio) is required to deal from a 52 card deck, so strategy still matters. My point was simply that the OP was correct that the hand you're seeing at a 1 credit bet is not the same hand you would have seen on a 5 credit bet...similarly pressing the "deal" button at a slightly different time (fractions of a second) would reveal a different hand. The machines are designed to constantly generate numbers even when not being played in order to foil someone being able to look at a machine and predict the next outcome (e.g. someone with an in-depth understanding of the algorithms working in a given machine).
     
  13. spdandpwr

    spdandpwr Low-Roller

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    Gotcha -- that's what I thought. And, I understand that's how it works on a slot machine...it's always cycling. Would love to know if IGT (or any other manufacturer for that matter) are privy to special knowledge and/or are allowed to gamble at casinos.
     
  14. FuzzyDiceCraps

    FuzzyDiceCraps High-Roller

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    I've often wondered the same thing, I know there have been in the past some stories of guys who had inside knowledge of a specific machine and have been able to "game it" enough to get some big wins. My guess is the systems have become so complex that it is no longer feasible, although I'm not a tech guy at all, and I'm sure there are probably some kind of loopholes that could be exploited with someone with the right combination of knowledge and equipment.
     
  15. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Yeah, always cycling for game protection reasons. If you can predict the next cards coming out on a VP machine, you would gain a fairly sizable advantage. I would think they would be allowed to play in most cases. If not, then I probably shouldn't apply to IGT...lol
     
  16. SideTrackTap

    SideTrackTap Tourist

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    The continuous cycling of the RNG on a VP would just be during the initial deal, correct? I.E., You hit deal on a new game and it gives you 5 cards from the 52 card deck, then on the second deal (if any), it pulls the next cards from the same arranged 52 cards (minus the original 5 obviously) from the initial deal/shuffle? That's the best I could describe it, hope it makes sense.

    Chris
     
  17. spdandpwr

    spdandpwr Low-Roller

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    I'd like confirmation on this as well. I was told both hands cycle. The initial five (obviously) and the second five. So if you take too long when you're sitting on a 4 to royal, you might miss it.
     
  18. Chump

    Chump Tourist

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    The original VP machines lined up ten imaginary cards upon pressing deal, the shuffle stopped. The first five rolled out on to the screen, the next five sequentially laid under the top five cards. If you discarded a card, the one underneath came up. The second generation of VP machines again lined up ten imaginary cards and the recycling stopped upon the deal. The top five rolled out on to the screen but the next five came out in order regardless of the position of the dropped cards. This was as close to a live deal as VP ever got. The current generation of VP stops the continuous recycling upon the deal but then resumes the shuffle until the draw occurs. Just imagine what would happen in the poker room if a live dealer would do the same. Yes, it would seem that timing has become more important than the actual hold.
     
  19. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Video poker machines used to be this way about 30 years ago, but aren't any more. Much safer to shuffle the remaining deck over and over and over until you're ready to draw. If somehow someone knew the next five cards ahead of time, then they would have a big advantage. I've never heard a story of anyone cracking that though.

    With modern games every second probably dozens of royal flushes flash by when you hold four to a royal. It's all about being lucky in your timing after making the correct hold. You won't miss the opportunity to hit it if you wait awhile to draw it. It will just keep cycling the 47 possible outcomes for the final card until you tell it to stop.
     
  20. SideTrackTap

    SideTrackTap Tourist

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    Well, that's somewhat disheartening, or maybe it's more of a rude a wakening. However, I guess as long as I'm playing proper strategy, it's still the same game.

    Thanks for the replies guys.

    Chris