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Slots Vegas too tight?

Discussion in 'Slots' started by TMescan, Apr 15, 2013.

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  1. TMescan

    TMescan Tourist

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    Frequent Vegas often for work/fun. The wife plays slots and I play craps and live in the sportsbook. Last couple years we just havent hit anything on the slots and really dont see many others hitting either (bonuses, decent hits etc). Anyone else feel like the slots just arent worth it anymore? I feel like the only benefit were getting is the rewards off of slot play but Im usually having to make up our bankroll on craps/sports. Shes now a converted craps player after last weeks trip. Being from Oklahoma we have a ton of Indian casinos and the value of those slots here is off the charts compared to LV.
     
  2. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

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    I think the big thing is just that slots have changed in the last few years...

    Just going back 5-6 years ago it was pretty common to get a good amount of play for your money on a slot machine and from time to time you would see a nice big jackpot being hit.

    The last few years WMS and High5/IGT have really taken over the slot floors of most casinos, but most of the games they have been putting out all have an extremely high volatility.

    What that means to the average player is that you will see more wins over the $100 mark when you are betting just 30 to 40 cents; however that comes at the price of less of the more frequent small wins, meaning you are going to get a lot less play out of your money... meaning the machines will appear "tighter" even though they largely have the same payback percentages of games from 5-10 years ago.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
  3. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Yes, games today are very high volatility, so now you get a few big winners at a cost of more losers. Also if you look at the Nevada Gaming Board's data, penny slots also have been gradually tightened in the last decade. Jan 2013's numbers on the Strip came in at a dismal 86.13% return. For most people who play penny slots, their local casinos are slightly better paying than the Strip.
     
  4. buffalo

    buffalo Low-Roller

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    Vegas strip probably has some of the worst paying slots in the country now. I think the min payback in NV is 75% so it's not going to get better either. Many states have min payback higher than NV and many of them are around 90% right now. Most of the Indian casinos operate outside regulations as they are autonomous and can order machines with any payback they want. Your observations are correct, but it's Vegas!
     
  5. engicedave

    engicedave VIP Whale

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    Come play slots in Florida, especially at the Seminole Hard Rock Casinos....Hollywood is better than Tampa because it has some competition, but LV seems loose by comparison.
     
  6. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

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    Thats actually a pretty common mistake, to look at the "WIN PERCENT" in the NGC reports and think that represents the house edge (in the case of penny slots the "WIN PERCENT" saying 13.87% which would translate to an 86.13% payback).

    But those numbers actually represent the casino's hold on games, not the house edge, that's why for other games you have numbers like:
    Blackjack: 12.32%
    Craps: 10.68%
    Three Card Poker: 32.70%
    Let it Ride: 25.45%

    The big one that gives it away is roulette: the worst possible house edge in roulette is 7.89% (the "basket bet" on a 00 wheel) but the NGC report lists the roulette "WIN PERCENT" as 18.08%

    If you are a bad blackjack player you can increase the house edge a bit, or with craps you can stick to just the bad bets... but in roulette there isn't anything you could do to increase the house edge beyond 7.89% so those numbers can't be the house edges.
     
  7. MoneyToBurn

    MoneyToBurn Low-Roller

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    Yes, or come play in Canada, where I believe 80% is de riguer.

    Higher volativity to me is the real culprit in Las Vegas. How many million dollar jackpots has Flamingo doled out this year? Three or four really happy souls, and a heck of a lot of lighter wallets to compensate. If you look at slots as entertainment, you're on the right track.
     
  8. Ruark

    Ruark Low-Roller

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    I spent many, many hours playing slots in Vegas back in the 70s and 80s, and it's beyond question that they're tighter now. They're basically just no fun any more. Making it even worse is the TITO concept. It was a gas watching several hundred coins clatter down into the tray, and you could run your fingers through your.... money! There was no thrill on earth like watching a hundred big, heavy, sparkling silver dollars crash down into the tray. In addition to being tighter, with modern slots you play much faster, way too fast.

    I spent a TON of money on slots on my last trip to Vegas, and in 5 full days won absolutely nothing. Not even a small jackpot. Zero. Zilch. I might as well have just dumped my money into the nearest wastebasket. That never, never, NEVER would have happened back in the old days.

    It's hard to talk about this subject without the topic regressing to one of "the old Vegas vs. the new Vegas." So I'll digress here (bites lip).

    The only time I play slots now is just when I need a place to sit and take a break with a drink. I'll put $20 in a penny machine, which gives me 2,000 one-cent pulls. That can take a couple of hours to burn up, while I sip a margarita, cool off and watch people. That's about all today's slots are good for.
     
  9. Hawaiianmark

    Hawaiianmark Low-Roller

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    RNG isnt it? You arent there when the good ol' RNG hits "your" random.

    :evillaugh
     
  10. AlwaysVegas

    AlwaysVegas Low-Roller

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    Very well stated Auggie.

    I gave up on slots several years ago because of the volatility. Sad considering how much more interesting the technology has allowed the games to be. Yet, I'm no longer willing to pump through $20 at 25-50 cents per spin just to watch a few $2.00 wins come up, a bunch of losing "wins," and end up busted in a few minutes. I can't count how many times I lost $20 before I'd even warmed my seat.

    Sure, had some great bonus rounds, but I just don't find the volatility fun. I also don't enjoy getting a cherished bonus round to just get a zonker and zero or low bonus. No fun for me. It's the same reason I avoid any of the bonus video poker games. Great if you hit the quads...very, very bad if you don't. Apparently, many people enjoy the big bonuses versus long-term play.

    I remember being in Vegas on my 21st birthday in 1991 and playing a 5-line nickel slot at the Frontier. The biggest jackpot was $50. I played that machine for about four hours and got the jackpot twice with an initial investment of $10. In the meantime there was so much fun play that it was nothing but enjoyable. I really miss those times. Now it's feast or famine and usually famine.

    I understand some slot companies actually designed machines where you could choose larger wins with less frequency or smaller wins with greater frequency. I'm surprised that didn't take off...or maybe people just didn't understand the difference. I don't recall seeing the machines, but I rather stopped looking at most slots altogether. Article.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
  11. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Actually Win Percent = House Edge for slots because every single wager is accurately tracked in a slot machine. So yes, the house edge of penny slots in Vegas is well over 10%. It has been this way for a few years. House edge on penny slots in Missouri have been 12-13% for the last few years as well. It's one of the worst possible things to gamble on regularly.

    Like you mentioned, Win Percent for table games is not the house edge and is the casino "hold" instead because not every single wager can be tracked in a table game. Only the amount of chips bought at the table and the chips collected by the table can be easily tracked. If one calculated the slot Win %age in the same manner as the table games, the slot machine's "hold" would likely near 30%.

    We can see this to be true with Illinois's new "Video Gaming Terminals" (VGTs) which publish both coin-in and the actual funds that are input and cashed out on the VGTs. Last month's report:

    http://www.igb.illinois.gov/revreportsVG/VGStat201303.pdf

    Amount Played: $242,564,602
    Amount Won (by players): $223,773,864
    VGT Return: $223,773,864/$242,564,602 = 92.25% (better than the riverboats...lol)

    Funds In: $65,393,173
    Funds Out: $46,602,613
    VGT Net Terminal Income: $18,790,560
    VGT Terminal "Hold": $18,790,560/$65,393,173 = 28.73%
     
  12. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    tringlomane is correct. The win/hold % used in the NGC reports reflects the actual payback for slots during that period.....its total win/coin-in. For table games it doesn't, its total win/buy-in. The latter doesn't take into account churn or buy-ins made with cash from the cage bought with previously purchased chips.

    I wish they broke out win % on VP separately from slots. It would be nice to see what they actually make on those machines vs. optimal play.
     
  13. LV_Bound

    LV_Bound VIP Whale

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    Took 2 trips in 2012 and actually did very well on the Slots.
    Latest trip in Feb 2013 and took a HUGE beating. Figured it was bound to happen.
     
  14. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    I do too, but from a few posts I have seen from other gambling forums, it's typically 2 to 3% lower than optimal return. One of the most common errors I see is players breaking two pair with Ks, Qs, or Js in DDB. I am pretty certain more players break this than hold two pair...haha Actually on a recent trip to Tunica, I saw a chick playing 9/5 Triple Double Bonus doing it as well, which is even worse.

    Percent error by breaking two pair:
    9/5 DDB: 13.87% (ironically the Jan. 2013 Strip slot win percentage)
    9/5 TDB: 20.66%

    Kings, Queens, and Jacks up will be dealt to a player 1.83% of the time. So that single misplay will cost a player 0.25% longterm total in DDB.

    Also I'm sure a lot of people miss 3 to a SF draws as well. And of course the total overlook of pairs/high cards, or accidentally hitting the draw button before holding anything. Many video poker players are quite casual and definitely zone out a bit I think.
     
  15. Rush

    Rush High-Roller

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    When you see progressives that have jackpots for all of the high hands......the straight flush is almost always way out of whack, simply because people don't hold the proper cards.
     
  16. jrinct1

    jrinct1 VIP Whale

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    Might have to get off stip or go downtown.
     
  17. MikeOPensacola

    MikeOPensacola VIP Whale

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    I avoid the slots for two huge reasons:

    1. Volatility. Way too many losses to make up for the wins that come once ina blue moon.

    2. Speed. The speed of playing slots, even though it can be completely controlled by the player - I admit, is just too rapid.

    You have to figure the casino bean counters know what they are doing when the vast majority of allocated casino space and profits come from slots.

    I prefer to play BJ. If you play basic strategy, stay sober and don't chase bad money with good money your worst blackjack days will not be that bad and your good ones will be nice. Your money will last eons longer than it will at slots.:peace:
     
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  18. Timchuk

    Timchuk Tourist

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    Is there any decent vp left on strip?
     
  19. Buddha

    Buddha VIP Whale

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    Players that stay on the Strip, playing slot machines rated at 85% payback, and expecting to be "regular" winners are dreaming. Sure, somebody will get lucky every once in a while and hit a nice win. But, no ordinary person can walk up to a slot machine, look at it, and know what each machine is going to pay out.

    Learn how to play basic full-pay JOB (99.54%) or Bonus (99.17%) video poker, go off-Strip where lots of these VP games exist, and get a lot more play for your money. AND ... stay away from the more volatile DDB and TDB video poker games, until you really know what you're doing.
     
  20. wrxrob

    wrxrob High-Roller

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    I think the Vegas bean-counters have screwed the pooch, as it now seems you are better off gambling in other states' "home" casinos than in Vegas.

    The only games that Las Vegas appears to have better odds is maybe video poker. Blackjack has way too much 6/5 BJ, and too many tables where the dealer must hit soft 17. 1c/2c/5c/25c slots have always seemed tighter on the strip than any of my home casinos. I can't speak to the $1+ slots, since I haven't played enough of them on the strip.

    After traveling to Vegas at least 15 times, I now have changed focus. The only reason to return would be for the food, the shows, or maybe the party atmosphere. Gambling is no longer the top reason to return. Since I can get great food and partying in other places, I really don't have a reason to return to Vegas any time soon.
     
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