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To those concerned about 6/5 bj and shot pay VP...please read

Discussion in 'Casino Gaming' started by kingpasty, May 17, 2012.

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  1. kingpasty

    kingpasty High-Roller

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    If you really really think about it mathematically.....there isn't much difference. Take for instance Video poker. If you're playing a "short pay" machine, it's shorting you on full houses and medium hands. The only way any of us win a substantial amount of money is if we hit a big hand. 4 Aces is always the same. A Royal is always the same. Hell 4OAK is always the same. Not to mention, NONE of us play PERFECT strategy all the time.

    The same goes for 6/5 BJ and single 0 roulette, only paying double for 12 on the field, etc...

    Take 6/5 BJ...it only decreases the house edge by 1%, if even less. Is that really going to keep me from playing somewhere if I like it? Say I'm a $25 player. That means on average I'm giving up let's just say being generous $10/hour in wins (even though I think it's way less)....I'd much rather play somewhere that the dealers were friendly and I get 3 more drinks an hour than somewhere where I don't have fun.

    I guess it all boils down to the fact that I come to Vegas expecting to lose my bankroll. Am I the only one that feels this way?


    I guess the thing that got me fired up was everyone bitching about the Long Bar @ the D. I, Personally only play at a VP bar for an hour tops, and for free quick drinks. I dont give a damn what the pay tables are. Anyway, please all chime in, I'd love to hear your thoughts!
     
  2. MangoPort

    MangoPort Low-Roller

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    I think it's the principal of it. Aside from poker or card counting the house always has an edge, and that should be enough. Taking more of an edge seems greedy and is somewhat insulting, particularly when other casinos or high limits offer better odds. I understand the decision from a management perspective, I just simply won't play there.

    Melbourne's crown casino is huge example of this. For anything under $50/hand blackjack they have Blackjack PLUS. Which is regular blackjack except dealer pushes when they get 22. Tables were still packed with people.
     
  3. CosmoM

    CosmoM Low-Roller

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    I'm not concerned about 6/5 BJ because I will never play it unless there is a side bet that can be beaten. With 6/5 BJ you give yourself a -1.39% disadvantage. That alone is enough to clean out your bankroll.

    As for Video Poker, you need a very large bankroll to survive the large variance. The smaller payouts you are so willing to give up allow you to survive to play longer.

    In the short term anything can happen.


    Good Luck
     
  4. dewey089

    dewey089 Guru of Value

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    Since your goal is losing and as fast as possible, your sentiments make perfect sense.
    Glad to have you going to Vegas and paying the light bills.
    Let us know where and when you are playing live poker so we can join you at the table.
     
  5. trooth

    trooth Low-Roller

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    It is a lot bigger deal than you think on the video poker. Cutting the pay down on the smaller wins that hit more frequently clears your bankroll quicker. As said before the house has the edge already, they don't need more.

    I agree you should play where you want to play and better odds in a five with crappy drink service and a hotel you don't want to be comped in on a seedy part of town. I play slots and video poker pretty much exclusively so I know I have bad odds, but if my bankroll doesn't give me much okay I likely won't go back. That is what has happened at Cherokee for me. Getting greedy can kill a casino and players expect some play and a good time with their money. Not to go through their bankroll in a short ammount of time with no wins.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
     
  6. Tubbs

    Tubbs High-Roller

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    I have got better things to do than post a lengthy response to this one. Suffice to say that the OP's figures are wide of the mark and dewey's sentiments have hit the middle of the target.
     
  7. Turtleman

    Turtleman VIP Whale

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    I gave up trying to come up with some kind of intelligent remarks without sounding overly insulting to the OP! Let's just say that here's the perfect example why 6:5 games exist! Maybe next, the casinos will tack on a small fee just for sitting. I mean, if you're there just for fun or … whoops, it's starting to get ugly again. I give up!
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2012
  8. FoolsGold

    FoolsGold Tourist

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    Actually, it increases the House Edge by about 1.40percent ... which is actually a significant amount and should not necessarily be shrugged off as inconsequential.
    Will you wind up owning the casino at 6:5? No. Nor at 3:2 but 3:2 is historically the proper payment and anything less is cheating.
     
  9. merlin

    merlin VIP Whale

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    Think 6/5 doesnt matter? Well, how many BJ's do you get an hour? Maybe 3 or 4, more if you're alone(or almost alone), a $25 player loses $7.50 each time that happens - more if you bump your bets when winning, figure out how many hours a day you play and it could easily add up to a several hundred per trip.
     
  10. rbspartan

    rbspartan Low-Roller

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    Here's an idea: Why don't you give me half the money your were gonna to bet, then we'll go out back, I'll kick you in the nuts, and we'll call it a day! :evillaugh
    :beer:
     
  11. Natural21

    Natural21 Low-Roller

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    :nworthy:
     
  12. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    Merlin had it right about 6/5. You expect a blackjack every 21 hands, so 80 hands/hour =3.8 BJ an hour means losses of $28.57 an hour for a $25 better, not $10. More than 1 bet an hour. It's a total rip. The main point is these tables CAN be avoided and should be, unless you have to play at a $5 minimum.

    CET is the biggest abuser by far, but you still can sniff out the real BJ tables if you look a little bit.

    <i>I guess it all boils down to the fact that I come to Vegas expecting to lose my bankroll.</i> ARGH! No, I don't feel that way!
     
  13. Big Tip

    Big Tip VIP Whale

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    Yes, the principle. The disdain the casinos show for we customers.
    But this is the free market. The consumer can make their decision. You might be happy paying $15 for a hamburger somewhere because the restaurant is decorated nicely or the servers are pretty. Sometimes I do too, but I prefer a $8 hamburger.
    I look at these things as the Lines in the sand. If we tolerate these "small" things, the casinos will keep chipping away.
     
  14. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    I think you guys are being a bit unnecessarily harsh here.

    While his math was off all he was basically saying was that:

    1) We're all playing a sucker bet in the end

    and

    2) Having a good time doing it is more important than losing as slowly as possible.


    And both those things are entirely true. If you are playing a casino game and not having fun, you should probably stop entirely, because of point 1. Doing it if you're not enjoying it is actually slightly insane.

    However, the main thing I think he is not getting is that enjoyment is built partly on expectation. A great many of us EXPECT to see that blackjack paid 3:2. We expect full pay at the VP machine. And because of that expectation, no matter how hot the dealer or close the bartender, every time we get that win, and it pays less than we expect, it actually takes away from our fun.

    I would also say its going a tad too far to say you are expecting to lose your bankroll. I will budget assuming I'll lose it all (because if you can't do that you are playing more than you should), and often treat leftover daily bankroll as disposable to treat myself to fancier dinners/etc. But I wouldn't say I'm expecting to lose it all.
     
  15. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    +1......
     
  16. kiwiboy1

    kiwiboy1 Low-Roller

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    It IS possible to play full pay, play correctly AND have fun. I am not sure why people think these are mutually exclusive.
     
  17. saintpauljeff

    saintpauljeff VIP Whale

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    I agree with you should play the games with the best rules, yadda yadda yadda

    Here's the argument that I always bring up- sometimes you can get on the table with the best rules! I'm not a 12 hr gambler like some of the hard cores here so when I want to play blackjack from 5-7pm on whatever night, if I can't get on the 3:2 table I have no choice but to take a seat at one of the other games. For me its usually an availability issue because of time constraints.
     
  18. ken2v

    ken2v This Space For Rent

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    That's about as well said as anything here.

    Innumeracy and superstition run rampant in casino land.

    Now the anticipation that the bankroll might disappear is a far cry from going out of one's way to increase the house edge, rationalizing it as you do so. What can you say? I think like Dewey does, "Thanks."
     
  19. vegas_or_bust

    vegas_or_bust High-Roller

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    I understand where the OP is coming from (but I don't necessarily agree). If you are just going to have fun, then the odds don't really matter to you, as the only time you win is when you hit the jackpot (i.e. Royal Flush). You are gambling purely for fun, rather than to make a profit.

    That being said, however, I think the OP is the poster-child for the CET blackjack rules. The OP (and the thousands that think like him) are the reason 6:5 BJ is so prevalent in Vegas right now.
     
  20. kingpasty

    kingpasty High-Roller

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    So because I go to Vegas expecting to lose makes me a bad poker player? Look I'm going to Vegas to have fun and gamble. If I happen to win, great. But if you're going to Las Vegas to gamble and MAKE money, you are going for all the wrong reasons. It reminds me of one time playing .25 roulette at the ElCo, and some guy next to me getting mad b/c I was having fun/being loud/whatever. He informed me he was not there to have fun, but to make money. I informed him he really needed to rethink his chosen profession.

    I guess I just don't see why people get so upset when one property has worse pay tables than another, and get MAD at people who play the less favorable games! It's not like there was a "Vegas Rule Book" written, and the casinos have to play by it. Either way, in the long run you're going to lose. In my mind a VP machine that pays out 94% is still better than most slots.

    Anyway, I didn't mean to come off rude, and looking back at my post I can see that it was taken that way, and for that I'm sorry. I just really don't understand why people get so mad when a casino pays worse than another lol.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2012
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