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Table Games Thoughts on 3/2 8 Deck vs. 6/5 Double Deck

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by nubia11, Feb 18, 2013.

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  1. nubia11

    nubia11 Low-Roller

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    All these years, I've shunned the 6/5 blackjack game...until a few nights ago when I found myself sitting at a double deck table at Cosmopolitan. Granted, the table was missing the sign that indicated this important detail but, I learned soon enough as I was dealt a blackjack early on. Did I leave once I received my first 6/5 payout? Nope. I continued to play for several hours, successfully but, still, 6/5?!?!?! I feel like I'm morally compromised, a disappointment to purists everywhere but, hey, I had a great time, good drinks and actually walked away ahead. Its a slippery slope. Am I doomed?

    Okay, I'm not ready to dive off the cliff and give up just yet, even though 6/5 appears to be here for the long run. Still makes me feel like I’m getting ripped off and letting the man win if I succumb to the pressure, even if it’s a case where I like the venue and service. Although, I will say that those things are a consideration as I’m no longer that interested in playing at a location where I don't enjoy the hotel and amenities. I am not a professional gambler after all, and I go to Las Vegas for the leisure activities as well as the gaming.

    The thing that I realized through my recent experience is that my good time and good fortune overshadowed the crappy odds, if only for a moment. I also find that a double deck game is much less volatile than an 8 deck shoe. Perhaps its just luck but I feel like the frequency of shuffles in a double deck game facilitates quicker transitions from a cold deck. Is that worth the trade down to 6/5? Probably not but, it got my brain stirring a little so I wanted to throw it out there to see where others fall on this one. The other thing that I'd like to understand is how much emphasis people put on the odds versus the gaming experience and gaming location.
     
  2. ams722

    ams722 Side Bet Shunner

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    I would NEVER play a 6 to 5 shoe game.

    However, I've also played the 6 to 5 double deck game at Cosmo and I enjoyed myself quite a bit. Can't remember if I ended up winning or losing (which probably means I broke even and bolted). Cosmo has great dealers and excellent cocktail service, so I can forgive the crappy BJ payout because of that.
     
  3. nubia11

    nubia11 Low-Roller

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    Agreed on the 6 to 5 shoe game. Cosmo had quite a few $15 shoe games last Thursday night, some, but not all of which were 6 to 5. Funny thing is there were more open seats at the 3 to 2 games, same number of decks.
     
  4. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    I can almost see why they converted single-deck to 6:5, because with good rules the house pretty much had zero advantage. And then they want to still offer the game with a $5 or $10 minimum, they had to increase the edge just to afford the dealer and the lights. And remember in the good-old-days when everything was still single-deck (before my time), the players were REALLY bad, so they got their money pretty easily. Basic strategy was not common knowledge.

    But I find 6:5 on double-deck games obscene. With H17 they still get 1/2 a percent edge, they put the cut-card in at 52 cards, and they STILL have to squeeze more out of the game by short-changing you on blackjacks? I'd MUCH rather play the 8-deck game.

    Let say you're a $25 bettor. Either game you should get something like 4 blackjacks per hour. So instead of the $12.50 bonus X 4, you get a $5 bonus X 4. You're being short-changed $30 PER HOUR, or more than a whole bet. That's A LOT.
     
  5. numeno

    numeno VIP Whale

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    I am willing to play a $5 table at 6:5 depending on the situation. There are simply no rules that can make up for the crappy BJ payout so it is always going to cost more playing these tables.

    While this is not 100% accurate, I expect to lose 2X on a 6/5 table than a 3/2. It goes from .5%-1% up to 2%+ house edge. This is why I don't mind doing it on $5 tables, but I refuse to do this on a $25 table.
     
  6. mescalita

    mescalita High-Roller

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    As long as people keep playing the horrendous 6/5 games, the casinos will continue to reduce the number of decent 3/2 tables. See article below and just say no!

    http://www.blackjackinfo.com/no6to5.php
     
  7. StormHawk

    StormHawk High-Roller

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    In theory it should only increase the HA by 30% though, shouldn't it?
     
  8. mike_m235

    mike_m235 Tourist

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    With everything else being equal, you're giving up about 1.2% in house advantage if you play double deck 6:5 vs 6 deck 3:2. That's a LOT of HA for blackjack. Stay away from 6:5.
     
  9. numeno

    numeno VIP Whale

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    It doesn't work like that. It does reduce the BJs by 30%, but it isn't easy to know how much of your total payout is in BJs.

    Each rule change has a mathmatical change in house edge. For 6/5 BJ payout, it increases the edge by ~1.4%. So if I have a game that normally is 99.5%, just switching the BJ rule makes the game nearly 4X better payout for the casino.
     
  10. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    I have the increase in house edge for 6:5 blackjack payout as 1.71%, but the point remains the same. It's a huge jump compared to the starting point of about 0.5%.
     
  11. joshrocker

    joshrocker VIP Whale

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    This is my major sticking point. If people had refused 6/5 games in the first place we could have moved on from a failed Vegas experiment. Instead most people don't seem to care and the 3/2 games are slowly shrinking. I'm fairly certain that all games will 6/5 sometime in the future even if it takes awhile for them to filter out of the high stakes rooms.
     
  12. mike_m235

    mike_m235 Tourist

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    The trick is, if you come to vegas and play $10 blackjack for an hour and a half, you're not really giving up much value playing 6/5. 100 hands and you're giving away less than 2% HA. That's about $20 difference in expected value. And you're mostly talking people who don't know basic strategy anyway at those games.
     
  13. numeno

    numeno VIP Whale

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    I disagree.

    While I have no doubt 6/5 is staying and will probably start to go into larger games, I don't see it overtaking all 3/2 games. I feel there will be enough competition that someone will have 3/2 just as a gimmick to get people in. You already have this in that MGM probably gets more table players than CET due to their rules.
     
  14. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    2 bets per hour is 'not really giving up much'. But that's EXACTLY what the corporate greed-heads want you to think. ("I don't get very many blackjacks anyway, what does it matter." .... etc. etc.)


    The point remains that you can almost always play a 3:2 game in the same casino. Why would I opt for 6:5?
     
  15. shokhead

    shokhead I'm no big spender!

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  16. shokhead

    shokhead I'm no big spender!

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    You don't get it. Vegas has been slowly turning over 3/2 to 6/5 as the boomers age and the new money{younger new gamblers}start coming to vegas. Since they don't know 3/2 from 6/5 they just play as happy as could be 6/5 because they just don't know. Vegas isn't stupid for sure. The newbies just don't know what they don't know imo of course.:beer:
     
    Here we go again!
  17. seviay

    seviay High-Roller

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    As someone who is very math- and numbers-oriented, I spit at 6/5 games as well. However, like you, I had the bad momentum that can occur in big shoe games. In single or double-deck games, if the count sucks, you're out of it after only a few hands; in a big shoe, it feels like you can easily lose 6-8 in a row in a matter of a minute. Obviously, that cuts both ways also -- you can go on a huge surge in a good shoe.

    I fully recognize the math doesn't favor 6/5 single or double deck games, but if you can more easily keep a count, I feel like your advantage in the split and double situations may overcome a lot of the mathematical disadvantage of playing the 6/5 pitch games. I almost dislike getting a blackjack in these games, because the payout sucks, but when you can double on a favorable count, that's fantastic.

    Perhaps this is purely anecdotal, but it does feel like the need to shuffle more often -- and the ability to keep a decent count to affect betting patterns -- makes the 6/5 double deck game not much/any worse than an 8 deck shoe. I just never feel like I can get a good sense of the direction of an 8 deck shoe.

    If you're flat-betting and not keeping any sort of count, I don't think it's worth playing 6/5, but if you can keep any sort of count -- and adjust your bets accordingly -- I don't think it's a horrible game.
     
  18. saintpauljeff

    saintpauljeff VIP Whale

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    because sometimes the 3:2 table is full, because sometimes the 3:2 table minimum is higher than I want to play
     
  19. Naturaleight

    Naturaleight High-Roller

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  20. mike_m235

    mike_m235 Tourist

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    I'm not at all suggesting that you shouldn't play the 3:2 game. I've never played a 6:5 game in my life. I'm just suggesting that for casual gamblers it probably doesn't matter much. 2 bets every 100 hands...if I've got to travel to another casino to get the better game at the limit I want, the cab ride is going to eat that up anyway.

    Now for me...I play $100 a hand, so you're damn right I'm going to find the best rules I can, and I'm going to choose the casino I stay at using BJ rules as one of the factors. So the situation is different for everybody.
     
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