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Table Games The impact of tax and drinking - do I just play roulette?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Kiwicol, Feb 10, 2013.

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  1. Kiwicol

    Kiwicol Low-Roller

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    There has been a lot of talk here about roulette and the impact of the house edge in recent times (largely due to Nate's epic trip).

    While I get it can be a killer, I have convinced myself I am ok to keep setting aside a significant amount of my bankroll for the Vegas trip for roulette. Here is my reasoning...

    1. Its my favourite game.

    2. VP is my next favourite. On VP software trainers I can get to around 95% +/-, but that is when I am sober. In Vegas I tend not to be, and throw in distractions etc etc, and I am guessing I would be way down on optimal strategy. Same applies for blackjack.

    3. Tax - I live outside the US, and here we do not pay tax on gambling winnings (unless you are a professional gambler etc). So any profit I make on the roulette wheel I keep. This applies to other table games as well. BUT if I strike a big collect on VP/slots I will have 30% tax witheld (our tax treaty with US does not get me out of this as it does if I lived in say England). Practically speaking if I have a winning trip I am unlikely to get this tax back from the IRS.

    So has the "house edge" on VP just jumped way past that on roulette for me (and any US gamblers who don't report their table winnings)?? Or am I clutching at straws to justify my addiction:wink2:
     
  2. mike_m235

    mike_m235 Tourist

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    It really depends on what level you play and what kind of VP. If you're playing $1 JoB and the only taxable hit is the royal, that's different than if you're playing $5 DDB where a ton of different hands are going to hit you for a handpay.
     
  3. atom

    atom High-Roller

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    Are you playing VP on the trainer at 95% return or 95% accuracy? Depending on which hands you are making strategy mistakes on, 95% perfect play on a 99.54% JoB machine might still give you 99% payback. In fact, playing perfect 9/6 JoB strategy is good enough to get 99% on 99.17 bonus poker, which has a similar, but different strategy. If you play at the quarter level and stay away from progressives over 1200.00 you shouldn't hit anything that requres a w2g.

    That said, play what you like at a level (cost) that you can live with. What's the point of grinding out a lower loss if you're not having fun?
     
  4. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    It may be depending on the VP game and denomination you play as mike said. You bring up a good point about taxes that isn't discussed much anywhere since most of us can offset our losses against wins. But just calculating the payback assuming you pay the tax and don't get it back:

    For full-pay $5 JoB at max-coin:
    Optimal payback: 99.54%
    Post-tax payback: 98.84% (tax paid on straight or royal flush only)

    Reduce it by some factor based on your error-rate but its still probably better than the HA against roulette.

    However for 9/6 $5 DDB at max-coin:
    Optimal payback: 98.98%
    post-tax payback: 92.68% (tax paid on any quad or higher)

    Here on DDB the HA post-tax is already a lot higher than roulette, before you even factor in your error rate. Someone can double-check my numbers but I think they're right.

    So it all depends on the game and the denomination. If you're playing JoB at quarters there's no change in the payback, if you're playing full-pay at $1 its only on the royal which makes your payback 99% vs 99.54% w/o tax. Still very good.

    What game and denom do you play?

    Of course, if roulette is your favorite game and you're looking for reasons to justify playing it than it being fun for you is all the justification you need. We're all going to lose at any of these games eventually, might as well have fun doing it!
     
  5. Kiwicol

    Kiwicol Low-Roller

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    Thanks for the answers guys. Very interesting info and food for thought

    I do tend to stick to $1 + JOB (ie $1 max coins in and depending on bankroll/success I do bet at $5 level quite a bit). Sometimes I have a crack at other types of VP, but I appreciate my strategy worsens on those other games so I try to limit it.

    Thanks for the stats Kickin Chicken - I will need to find another justification for roulette:wink2:

    Atom - I am 95% accuracy - so point taken on return impact.
     
  6. may24

    may24 Low-Roller

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    I am a Canadian, I know that we have the 30% withholding done at the time of the win but get most if not all of it back at income tax time here.
    For New Zealand, I assume its similar, so you really will not lose 30% on your wins. I found this quick paragraph from the Wizards site:

    This is getting out of my area, but I'll try to help. The IRS web site says that for this purpose, the U.S. has tax treaties with the following countries: Austria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Russian Federation, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Tunisia, Turkey, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom. Note that New Zealand is not on the list.

    If you are a resident of one of the listed countries, and you hit a jackpot of $1,200 or more, then you should ask to fill out a form W8BEN. That should reduce, or in most cases, eliminate the withholding.

    Even if you are not from one of the listed countries, or don’t fill out the form, you can still get the withholding back by filling out form 1040NR, or the simplified version the 1040NR-EZ.
     
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