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Table Games Table limits why?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Bajagmoe, Mar 26, 2014.

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  1. Bajagmoe

    Bajagmoe Tourist

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    What is the logic of high table limits when nobody is playing. I was at cosmo and all the tables were 25 and up and empty. Why not lower to 10 and move up as the place packs up. Whats the logic of having 10 dealers doing nothing while 2 have full tables? Any idea why they do this.
     
  2. paperposter

    paperposter VIP Whale

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    why do the cosmo have the best bj tables start at 200$ and 300$ in the hl room at cheapeast and then raise them up alot more all the time and the room is empty beacuse the cosmo suxs for black jack:thumbsup:
     
  3. merlin

    merlin VIP Whale

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    Cause they're stupid.

    Seriously, they think they're too good to appeal to small fry, they dont want them and think they're more trouble than they're worth. You see it everywhere though, some places stubbornly stick to $10 tables when 5 would fill up. Honestly the thing to do is not wonder about it for more than a second, just move on, someone will want your business.
     
  4. hail2skins

    hail2skins Low-Roller

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    I think its stupid too, but I have heard of instances where places will lower a table if the others are full, if you ask the pit boss.
     
  5. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

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    I've successfully done this many times over the years, at a lot of casinos.
    I've also convinced them to open up 'closed' 3-card & UTH tables before their 'scheduled' time to open.

    Always worth asking.
    Not that long ago, I asked (at 4-Queens, I think) if they'd lower the $25 two-deck BJ table to $10. They did it - the table went from empty to full in 10 minutes. The pit then came by, changed the minimum back to $25, and told all of us we were grandfathered-in at $10.
    So ask - sometimes, the answer is yes and sometimes it's no. But ask.
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  6. joshrocker

    joshrocker VIP Whale

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    This has always been a question for the ages. Part of it is probably trying to make sure they appeal to a certain clientele.
     
  7. jhpa

    jhpa High-Roller

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    There is certainly a marketing decision - as others have mentioned, wanting to be perceived as a casino appealing to a higher end clientele.

    But there is also some economics at work. Even a crowded $10 table often makes less money per hour than a $25 table with one person playing. If you can talk one or two of those players looking for a a $10 table to play at a $25 table, the house makes a lot more money in the long run.
     
  8. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    Another strategy is if you see a $50 table that's empty. Ask the boss if you can play for $25 but leave the sign at $50. I've worked that at Aria quite a few times. They probably will leave you 'grandfathered' in even when more players show up playing at $50.

    From their side, if they think a table will be empty just for 30 more minutes and the high-rollers will show up soon, they figure that's a better path then lowering the limit. Basically one $100 player is worth four $25 players, and probably more because the $100 player will likely start playing more than one chip at least part of the time, while you get a lot of green players that simply play $25 every hand.

    You'll definitely see these lines of idle dealers at $50/$100 tables (main floor) at the ritzier places like Bellagio, Aria and Wynncore. It seems like Caesars always has full tables whenever I go over there.
     
  9. thecarve

    thecarve Misanthrope

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    I think that part of it is they are trying to get you to play bigger. I suppose they figure that if there are no $15 tables open, the $15 player will eventually sit down at a $25 table…or (even better) sit down at a 6:5 table. I know this strategy has worked on me in the past (going to a higher minimum table – not a 6:5 one).

    Plus, if they lowered the minimums on an empty table, the guy who’s playing the higher minimums might switch. They don’t want the guy who’s betting $50/hand moving over to the (newly lowered) $25 table because he’s getting his ass kicked. They want him reaching into his pocket for another $1000 so he can continue playing at $50/hand.

    I also think there might be some truth to the comments regarding the marketing angle. A Bellagio or Wynn might feel they are better off giving up a little revenue (by not having many low $ tables available) in order to project a certain image.

    As far as the higher minimum tables ($50, $100+), I think it’s probably a necessity for a casino to have many more of those tables than they “need”. Most players who play those tables don’t want to be at a crowded table – some want the table all to themselves.
     
  10. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    Here's some casino management literature on the subject:

    http://www.billzender.com/os/resources/media/better_table_occupancy_08_10.pdf (focuses on table game occupancy management)

    http://www.billzender.com/os/resources/media/table_game_mgmt_small_casino_12_2013_p-3.pdf (focuses on small casinos but it can be a pro rata argument)

    http://www.casinoenterprisemanagement.com/articles/july-2012/fallacy-table-game-hold (focuses on a different discussion about table hold vs. profitablity, but this issue is addressed in the subtext)

    Those were the first hits on a google search, I'm sure you can find more.

    I agree with everything thecarve posted. Another thing to add is you need to factor in option value. If you have all the lowest limit players confined to tables that are fully occupied you have the option value of both higher limit players sitting at other tables and the option of closing tables down and saving the operational cost. Having a bunch of tables occupied by just 1 or 2 $5-$10 players would be a bad scenario for casinos with higher operational costs. Now they'd have to decide whether to keep them running at what is likely a loss or shut them down and risk the players leaving the casino instead of convening onto a few tables.

    That being said I'm sure some casino managers are bad at managing occupancy and spread their limits inefficiently. It is worth asking if they can lower a limit but if you're asking about lowering something like a $15 table to $5 or $10 I don't think you'll have much luck at most strip casinos. Worth a shot though.
     
  11. Bazzito52

    Bazzito52 Low-Roller

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    Question for the high roller and casino management alike:

    Can't you bet $50.00 at a $10.00 table??

    Sort of like those legal sized file cabinets. You actually can put letter sized file folders in them I've done it!!
     
    NFL Divisional Playoffs!!
  12. numeno

    numeno VIP Whale

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    Yes, you can bet $50 on that table, but you also aren't required. I regularly look for $15 tables with the expectation that I will be betting $40 to start off. If things start heading south for a while, I will drop down to $15 with the expectations that after a few wins, I'm back up to $40.


    There are also some times of day where table limits matter more and it will be more obvious there are issues. I'm guessing somewhere in the 8-9pm range they start raising limits. So if it was dead in the afternoon, it will still be dead with higher limits. They are simply preparing for the evening.

    Late in the evening they will also keep table limits high so that when the shifts are done, dealers can actually go home. I'm assuming it is rarely the case that equal number of dealers come in at 4am that leave at 4am.
     
  13. DeMoN2318

    DeMoN2318 The DERS

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    $5 and $10 tables are for low end casinos...if you saw $5 BJ at Bellagio, then its not as high class as it should be perceived as
     
  14. NYPoker

    NYPoker Tourist

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    I kid you not, I played a $5 single deck blackjack game at bellagio in 2012 for my 21st. It was a Friday as well albeit in the morning. Don't ask me how or why they had it but I played it. I then thought it was normal so when I was there for my second trip and couldn't find one I was extremely disappointed.
     
  15. DeMoN2318

    DeMoN2318 The DERS

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    geez...what has Bellagio become SMH :peace:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2014
  16. thecarve

    thecarve Misanthrope

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    Check out KickenChicken’s links on the subject. Some really good stuff.

    I thought the first report about the ideal table occupancy (which changes with the table minimum) was particularly interesting. And it pretty much answers every question that’s been posed on this thread.
     
  17. Dweller

    Dweller Low-Roller

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    I thought that first link was interesting too. It is like other businesses not just gambling. If you are charging less you need to change the product to make it profitable. In casinos if you have a low limit table you need to have full tables. Things change on different days too. If you go into Bellagio or Aria early in the day midweek you will find plenty of $10 and $15 tables. But there will be less at nights and weekends.
     
  18. geoff

    geoff Low-Roller

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    sure, you can but many (if not most) players at 50+ (or even 25) don't want to play at a $5 or $10 tables.. generally whatever the lowest min table at whatever casino gets tons of people who don't even come close to following basic strategy and tons of jump in for one $5 hand, by in for $20, etc.. type of players.
     
  19. LV_Bound

    LV_Bound VIP Whale

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    Same reason you see other questionable acts with businesses....the decisions are made at a higher level by people who never see the real action. All they see are the books and numbers.
     
  20. Big Tip

    Big Tip VIP Whale

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    More. Four people drink a lot more than one.

    A lot of people don't think about the casino paying for those free drinks.
    That's why $5 tables are probably just about break even for the casinos.
    60 hands per hour at $5 = $300 in action. 2% house edge means they make $6 an hour from that $5 player. Not only are they giving you drinks during that hour, but they are also paying the dealer. So really, if they can get one $25 player to sit down, that's better than a full table of $5 bettors.
     
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