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Video Poker Settle a VP "discussion", please

Discussion in 'Video Poker' started by fenway68, Apr 14, 2014.

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  1. fenway68

    fenway68 High-Roller

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    A friend of mine insists that among the various Jacks or Better games (JOB, BP, BD, DDB etc) the variance is based on machine "programming" not to hit as many quads...thats why they can pay more for them...

    ..I say, that its a poker, random poker, same game on each machine, and the variance comes from the pay tables, the lower hand payouts are lower, etc...

    its not that they deal out two cards to each "spot" and you are guessing which combo holds the winning hand..deck is random "shuffled", 5 cards "off the top" followed by the next 5 cards (static deck or continued shuffle at that point I don't know)

    am I correct?
     
  2. AlexS

    AlexS Tourist

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    I believe your theory is correct assuming that you are playing on a class III machine and not a class II machine. Class II machines are basically bingo machines that have a front to look like video poker.
     
  3. The Furry One

    The Furry One Low-Roller

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    I would ask your friend why exactly he/she thinks payouts for lesser hands vary between the games then if they are correct ;)

    Furry
     
  4. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Alex is right. In most jurisdictions, it's a random standard deck of poker cards and return is dictated by a paytable.

    In some places, this game isn't legal. And then it defaults to electronic bingo like Alex said, or pull tabs. Foxwoods/Mohegan are standard "Class III" video poker. But Twin River in Rhode Island, or Resorts World in NY isn't.

    When I ask that, they never respond.
     
  5. The Furry One

    The Furry One Low-Roller

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    Exactly lol.

    Furry
     
  6. NickyDim

    NickyDim VIP Whale

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    The next big question is one I always wondered about.

    The deal. Like the OP asked. Are 10 cards dealt at the start (2 for each spot) or is it sequential. When I see the first card of the draw would that have been the first card regardless of which cards I draw. Always wonder that if I decide to go for a pair and not a flush. The flush draw card is in position 4 for example, but the pair are in position 4 and 5. Now a matching suit comes out in position 1 (because I kept the pair), would I have hit the flush?

    example:
    dealt: 3d, 10d, 5d, 2c, 2d
    kept: x x x 2c, 2d
    end: 7d, 9s, 8h, 2c, 2d

    How are the draw cards dealt/determined?
     
  7. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    As for the draw cards, everything I read says they are continuously changing until you hit the draw button for the bar majority of machines still in service. But the oldest VP machines were initially designed the other way. 5 deal cards and a draw card behind each deal card. In terms of how the game actually plays, it doesn't matter.
     
  8. meyers67

    meyers67 High-Roller

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    I believe that I read somewhere that VP was originally set up to have cards under each card of the original dealt hand. Then, they changed it to be dealt the standard way (as if the re-draws were coming from the top of the deck.

    I think a bigger question is whether or not the deck is shuffled once or continuously shuffled. So if you do your redraw, does it matter how much time you wait before you hit the button.
     
  9. The Furry One

    The Furry One Low-Roller

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    In reality it really matters not as you have no idea what the 'current' card at the top of the deck is until you hit Draw nor what the 'previous' or 'next' card at the top might have been should the deck be being continually shuffled or not. The card(s) you get are the card(s) you get - no point wondering whether or not hitting the button that little bit sooner or waiting another microsecond might have brought about a more favourable result imo ... just move on to the next hand that might or might not be a RF depending on when you hit the Deal button lol.

    Furry
     
  10. rezod21

    rezod21 Tourist

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    This is a question i would love to know. I operate under the butterfly effect thinking and I would love to know if waiting another second/millisecond will change the outcome or not. Things like 'damn, if I didn't just take that drink of beer I might have hit my Set/Straight/Flush/etc'

    Another thing I can't help but think about is when at the live poker table is when I toss my cards in the muck sometimes I will switch their order before tossing them in the mix and then wonder about how that simple move effected the game for the rest of the night until that deck is pulled. I keep an eye out for the cards over the next few orbits and see how they changed different hands or had an effect. Stupid I know but it's those small things that effect the luck portion of the game. Skill takes care of the rest. lol
     
  11. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    The answer to this IS yes; you DO change the outcome. All modern slot machines and VP machines are constantly running their random number generators regardless of what is or is not happening on the screen (payout being made, waiting for you to pick cards, waiting for you to hit redeal, etc.) So you DO alter the outcome by hitting the button a second earlier or a second later, but there is zero way to predict if going fast or slow will give you a better hand.

    I don't know how many numbers are spit out in a second, but it is probably hundreds or more. So the fraction of a second that you hit the button will change the result. But its impossible to know what the other options would have been; the machine doesn't even know, it's already forgotten those numbers.

    The one question I've never gotten answered regarding slot machines is I get that when I hit the button to spin, it chooses three random numbers for the three reels. But are these three number IN SEQUENCE in the PRNG sequence? I've asked the 'experts' and nobody seemed to to know. I'm just wondering if they are actually in sequence if that could somehow make getting three jackpot symbols harder than it really should be.
     
  12. Joe

    Joe VIP Whale

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    You are correct, but it actually did 10 cards underneath. 5 for the draw and another 5 in case the double up option was enabled.

    But now, on the newer machines, it is a continuous shuffle on the draw cards.
     
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  13. ExVegasLocal

    ExVegasLocal Low-Roller

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    Some years back at a local bar in Vegas, I witnessed a woman becoming irate because she had too much to drink and failed to hold all three cards in a three of a kind that was dealt. She held two of the matching cards instead of all three.

    Upon pressing the deal button, the fourth card she needed turned up in position five, which was coincidentally one of the cards she needed. The bartender was tired of hearing her complain and called the slot route company. After what seemed like an eternity, the technician showed up and replayed the hand somehow. He explained that it wouldn't have mattered because the cards are dealt sequentially and the next two cards up were not the cards she needed to make the four of a kind. In order to make the four of a kind, she would have needed to draw three cards, which was not possible when already holding three cards.

    Whether he was telling her the truth or whether he was full of baloney...who knows? But it seemed like a reasonable explanation to me and I've always assumed that is the way it works. 10 cards dealt sequentially at random when the bet is made, with draw cards revealed in the order they are drawn, regardless of the position.
     
  14. S'AllGoodMan

    S'AllGoodMan High-Roller

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    For class III games they are continuous shuffle so it matters when you hit the deal button for your re-draw. I dont believe those old machines are on the floor anymore. That was many years ago.
     
  15. NickyDim

    NickyDim VIP Whale

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    Hope that helps. They are not in sequence, but then next 5 RANDOM numbers generated.
     
  16. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    When I said 'in sequence', I meant the sequence of numbers the random number generator creates, not like 3456, 3457, 3458, 3459, 3460. Your cite makes it sound like it DOES just grab as many numbers as it needs (3, 5, likely a lot on some of those video slots), directly off the RNG sequence wherever it's at when the button was pushed.

    If you know the 'seed' and which PRNG you're dealing with, you can actually know the next numbers in line. A guy scammed an electronic keno game (they didn't use the ping-pong balls), because he figured out when they would reset the machine and how they were picking the seed.

    None of this really matters, though, as to the chances of winning. Example: 3-reel Megabucks machine. On each reel, there are 284 possible virtual stops, and only one, let's say it's 39, is the megabucks symbol. However, the RNG probably generates numbers between 1 to 4,294,967,296, or something like that. Then it takes the MOD(X,284) of the number generated, and if that is 39, the megabucks symbol is displayed on that reel. So it's not harder than normal for the next 2 numbers in line to also have MOD(X,284)=39.
     
  17. bardolator

    bardolator Lifelong Low Roller

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    What I did read somewhere was that some slot machines deliberately alter the display in ways that seem to show that the player just missed a jackpot. In other words, there might be more winning symbols in the display than one could actually hit, and one sees them come to a stop just off the win line. Of course, this apparent near-win is totally bogus because there are no spinning reels in the machine. Since the odds of actually hitting the jackpot were not altered, technically the player was not cheated, just incentivized to keep playing.

    I get discouraged when I consider that every one of the many, many times I have had 4 to a royal dealt to me, I was the one who hit the button "wrong" and missed converting.
     
  18. The Furry One

    The Furry One Low-Roller

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    Don't be discouraged - there won't be a single long term VP player that hasn't failed to fill the Royal in that scenario many, many, many times more than they have managed to get the one card they want. Odds are 46-1 against.

    Furry
     
  19. Joe

    Joe VIP Whale

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    I call my wife the queen of 4 card royals. On a normal 4 night stay, she will usually get at least 15 of the four card dealt. It's really amazing. I maybe get 3 or 4 a trip. I guess that is why she has 27 royals total.

    She also gets a freaky high number of 4 to it, after the draw.
     
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  20. fenway68

    fenway68 High-Roller

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    i get a ton of 4 card royals it seems...have not hit a one yet in the 7-8 years I have been playing (sans the one I got on my iPad app-WinPokerHD, and I dont count that, and have only had one there too)

    lots of near misses, draws to 3 to a royal only to get the wrong red suit but the correct face etc...i had some pics of the near misses...

    I say every year...I am due!

    Thanks to everyone for settling my "bet"...its as I thought...no predetermined winners "as long as you pick the right card.."

    my friend went so far as to think this extreme example (he was trying to make his point), and see if you can follow his logic...

    delt..KsQsJsTsAh...

    he said the machine could predetermine a Royal, just not the one you expect..he said it could have set it up so you would have to discard the 4 spades, under which lie the 4 other Royal hearts...sometimes I have to wonder about those I hang with...:rolleyes2:
     
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