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Saying "raise"

Discussion in 'The Poker Room' started by pokerbucketlist, Apr 29, 2013.

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  1. pokerbucketlist

    pokerbucketlist Low-Roller

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    At my home poker room, if the big blind is say 100 (tournament) and you put down 400 without saying anything, the dealer just says 'raise to 400'. I raised at the mirage, and because i didnt vocalize it, it didnt count as a raise. I mean, its pretty obvious what i was doing. Do all the poker rooms have this rule?

    Thanks
     
  2. Ronoh

    Ronoh Tourist

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    It is always a raise without saying anything if you put in more than one chip (assuming you put out enough for a legal raise). If the BB was 100 and you throw out a single 500 chip without saying anything it is only a call.
     
  3. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    Yep it's all about 1 big chip or multiple. 1 is call, more than one is raise.
     
  4. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Yep, as others have said, a single chip is only a call, multiple chips will signify a raise. Verbalizing the raise amount overrides this rule.
     
  5. Huddler

    Huddler VIP Whale

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    I dont disagree with the what the folks in this thread have stated. However, I always announce my intentions BEFORE I act so there is no confusion. Why not say, "raise" prior to throwing chips out if that is what you intend to do? It keeps bullshit house rules or poor dealers from ruining your play.
     
  6. KBT2012

    KBT2012 High-Roller

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    I never say anything unless I go all in. If someone has 4 red chips out there and I throw 12 and the dealer can't tell what I'm doing, I'm leaving because the dealer has no clue what he is doing. I keep my raises standard and relevant to pot sizing so I can't imagine how it could confuse anyone.
     
  7. mjames1229

    mjames1229 VIP Whale

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    I have asked that question so many times, and all I get are nonsense, doubletalk, gobbledygook responses (like by KTB2012) who is saying, in essence, the dealer should know what I am doing and I am such a good player that the other players should know what I am doing, too.

    It is one word. One syllable.

    "Raise"

    Covers intent, covers bet size, covers any house rules, and it can be said while wearing sunglasses, a hoodie and ear buds, too.
     
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  8. KBT2012

    KBT2012 High-Roller

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    I made absolutely no comment on my skill, but thanks for interpreting the arrogance. It is my opinion that it is not necessary to say raise, a raise is extremely visually obvious if you place the chips correctly (all at once), I've never once in my life had a dealer get confused about me making this action, not ever, hence why I stated I would leave if they didn't understand because it is one of the most basic actions in poker. Now, I have no problem with people who say "raise" then toss their chips out in whatever fashion they choose. However, it is not my style and I choose not to do it. And btw, saying "raise" does not cover bet size. Sorry for another "gobbledygook" response.
     
  9. mike_m235

    mike_m235 Tourist

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    I was in a tournament awhile back where this became amusing. A guy didn't say raise and didn't make a big enough bet, so it became a call. So he started saying raise. Except he was an older guy wearing headphones, and had clearly never spoken while wearing headphones, so when he said it it came out as a shout.
     
  10. DonnyC

    DonnyC VIP Whale

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    The reason that people don;t want to vocalize their action is that it gives opponents another chance to get a tell on them based on tone, speed of the word 'raise' ext.
     
  11. mjames1229

    mjames1229 VIP Whale

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    Actually you did comment on your skill because you referred to your "raises standard and relevant to pot sizing so I can't imagine how it could confuse anyone." Therefore, it is inferred that anyone who could confuse it isn't at your skill level, and/or those who make unstandard or irrelevant bets also aren't of the same skill.

    And stating "raise" does differentiate when throwing a $500 chip at a $100 bet.


    When the better players control everything (upto and including the way they take a drink from a glass and how they breathe) controlling the tone and speed of the word "raise" could be controlled, too. Also, the method and speed of putting chips into a pot can be construed as a "tell".



    I am not trying to be a jag here :peace:, and I play poker regularly at my local casino and in Vegas, but I see more issues with this (both from players and dealers) that would be solved by just saying "raise" when that is the desired action.

    Maybe in the higher limit games that are only comprised of high quality players (and hopefully dealers) it isn't an issue.

    But in a $1/$2, $3/$5 game or $80 tournament? Just say the word.

    (And take the sunglasses off, too.):soapbox:
     
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  12. CrazyCanuck

    CrazyCanuck Tourist

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    Poker rules seem simple in abstract but when you start to apply them to specific, factual situations, with multiple interpretations of what happened (you, the dealer, your opponents), interpretation can get murky quickly.

    Let’s look at some possibilities. It’s your action and the big blind is $100:

    1. If you put in 1 $100 chip or say “call” you’ve called. That’s pretty straight forward.
    2. If you put 1 chip into the pot larger than the bet and say nothing it’s a call. This is called the “1-chip rule”. i.e. you throw a $500 chip in, that’s a call. This is as universal a rule as there is in casino poker.
    3. If you clearly and distinctly in one motion put 4 $100 chips ($400) into the pot that’s most likely a raise. You used multiple chips that were more than the current bet, you could have used 1 to call so clearly you intended to raise. Problems can still arise here! If there is any hesitation in the way you pushed the chips out or cut them off the dealer can call a string bet and you may be stuck with a call or raise to less than $400. If you have a stack of chips in your hand and put your hand in the pot and cut off $400 and return the rest to your stack some places (or dealers) will make you bet the entire stack in your hand in the pot because it crossed the line, some will say it’s only a call because you didn’t declare anything before moving your hand forward or because you cut $100 out of your stack before the rest and you didn’t cut the raise off outside the pot.
    4. You say “raise” and clearly put 4 $100 chips in the pot. This removes any doubt about the fact that you’re raising. Assuming you say “raise” before you make a motion, if you don’t the rule is generally the prior motion supersedes the verbal “raise”. Assuming you say “raise” first you’re guaranteed the ability to make the minimum raise to $200. Now after saying raise if you make any of the actions described above you could be interpreted to make a raise different then the raise to $400.
    5. You say “raise TO $400” before any motion. You get to raise to $400.
    6. You say “raise [pause] $400”. This may be interpreted as ‘I’m raising, the total is $400” OR “I’m raising the bet $400, the total is $500”
    7. You say “raise $400”. This is most likely a raise to $500 total.

    My point with this ramble is to show how the rules get murky when you start to look at factual situations. Eventually every player will at least one play ruled contrary to their intent. As a player you should do everything possible to minimize errors ruled against you. You can do this by thinking first and then making distinct actions, whether verbal or physical, and by knowing the house rules regarding things like chips in your hand entering the pot and betting lines.

    To the OP, it likely wasn't obvious what you were trying to do issues in hands are usually rare and they occur where a player's intent is not obvious. I've seen countless poker hands where a player explains that he was trying to make one action but I (and most of the players/dealer at the table) interpreted it in a completely different way. I've even made a few actions where after examining my actions I realized my actions signified a play different than my intent at the time.

    Finally if the dealer makes a call against my intention I do the following:
    1. Stop the Action- corrections are much easier to make before a whole bunch of other action takes place.
    2. Explain my intention- "No that's a raise"- if you stop it quick enough and explain sometimes it can be corrected in a "no harm no foul" way.
    3. If the dealer disagrees ask for an interpretation. "Why is it a call" If he gives a good explanation I may accept it and move on if not:
    4. Call the Floor person over- The Floor has final say and you can ask him for a ruling. Try and be calm and explain why you feel your action was a raise "I threw 4-$100 chips in all at once".
    5. Learn from your mistakes. Whether its a universal mistake or this particular room has some weird betting rule understand it going forward.
     
  13. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    This, but the people that are most paranoid about it are likely playing stakes where 99.9% of their opponents would fail to use a vocal tell from "raise" to their advantage. Players worry about tells way too much, and while worrying about this, they ignore basic pot odds and a decent preflop strategy.
     
  14. Ronoh

    Ronoh Tourist

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    The only time I ever say "raise" is when I match the current wager and go back to my stack ($175 to me, say raise, put in $175, go back to my stack) when I am after a situational tell.

    80% of the time I simply put out my raise without saying a word and in thousands of hours at the tables have never once had a problem with a dealer not understanding my play.
     
  15. PopMegaphone

    PopMegaphone VIP Whale

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    100% agree with this. Worrying about subtle tells at low level poker is mostly silly. Far larger -EV situations can arise from confusion over your intent with string bets, etc.

    Just say the word.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  16. Wanger1969

    Wanger1969 High-Roller

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    I always call a raise by verbalizing it, and many times, actually verbalizing the amount. This protects me from a miscount and also leaves nothing up to chance or confusion. I have been in too many circumstances where my actions are misunderstood, 99% of the time because of my own stupidity. :confused2:

    Being verbal saves me from myself. :haha:
     
  17. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    This is starting to sound like an angle shoot. OP realizes how confusing he's making the game yet refuses to change the way he plays to make it easier for the game to proceed.

    Why be so scared at the poker table that you can't vocalize your action? You can't be a very strong player if you're afraid that speaking will give away your hand.
     
  18. KKB

    KKB VIP Whale

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    Interesting...

    OP did not mention whether one over chip was put in or not (I assume it was).

    A couple responders continue to say they have never had any issues with their raises & they never say raise. WELL, then you must be making the raise with more than one chip, in which case your intention is clear, and the dealer will respond as such.

    This is quite simple...either say raise, or make the raise with more than one chip. These are the only 2 ways to make a raise.

    Tossing in one oversized chip is ALWAYS a call, unless verbalized as a raise (before the chip hits the table)
     
  19. KBT2012

    KBT2012 High-Roller

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    That has nothing to do with skill, that is absolute very basic poker knowledge that generally everyone at the table knows.....in particular dealers which are the discussion. That has nothing to do with skill at all, just because you know what pot sizing is does not mean you are any good or any better than anyone else......you just know very basic, common poker knowledge. And no, I don't wear sunglasses/hoodie/ipod at the table. Your welcome to keep guessing stereotypes though for whatever reason it affects you so much.

    Thank you.
     
  20. Ronoh

    Ronoh Tourist

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    Yes this is obviously what we do... it's been mentioned multiple times in the thread. Mostly in response to the guys who seem to think it's ridiculous to not say the word "raise" (still trying to figure that one out). In my case it has nothing to do with thinking I may give anything away in the way I say the word, I just have a pet peeve with stating the obvious. If someone makes a raise to $18 and I slide out 10 reds, anyone at the table who doesn't completely understand that I just raised shouldn't be there in the first place. I'm playing cards not babysitting.
     
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