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Table Games Roulette: Getting around table max by betting as a team?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by matguy, Dec 13, 2012.

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  1. matguy

    matguy High-Roller

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    So, assuming you have a large bankroll, the issue with Martingale in Roulette is hitting the table max. Which, say you're at a $5 minimum outside bet table with a $5000 max. On 1:1 bets you start losing big chunks of cash after 7 or so losses.

    Would there be any issue with having a team follow up bets behind the main better to compensate for the table maximum?

    Of course, the team shares winnings, and you could rotate the initial better, those are all internal details to iron out. But, the big question, would we get ejected? Beat up?

    I mean, it's not card counting, but it is getting around the Casino's profit making measures.

    My thought, initial better bets $5.
    Lose
    initial better puts down $5 again, second better puts down $5.
    Lose
    Initial better puts down $5, second better $5, 3rd,4th put down $5 each.
    Lose
    Each better now puts down $10.

    Now you get 2 extra consecutive losses before you start losing money (although, of course, since you've effectively raised the max, now you'd be losing more, but statistically less often.)
     
  2. earth-3

    earth-3 High-Roller

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    I would think you would be asked to leave once security gets on to you. However; I have not done the math, so if there is a chance you could eventually become big looser's, they might let you stay around a while to see if it would happen.
     
  3. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

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    I think one of the biggest issues with this system might be the part: "Of course, the team shares winnings"

    The problem being if you start at a low limit then the wins aren't really going to be enough for a team of bettors... if you start at a higher limit then you are going to hit the table's max much faster.

    And if you go to a high limit table then the problem I think there is that it becomes so much more obvious what you are doing just because most of the time there is going to be 0-2 people playing when you get there and four guys going up to the table and three watch as one bets and then next spin another bets and so on... it would just look pretty obvious.
     
  4. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    I don't agree. I don't think the casino would care one bit if they knew what you guys were doing. Under Martingale you'll be regularly risking hundreds of dollars to win $5. What do they care? The limits aren't there to prevent people from using martingale. Whatever that small initial bet is, that's all the casino risks losing. Why would you do it? After your 7th loss you're already down $635 trying to win just $5. By the time you reach table max you've already lost several thousand. Makes no sense.
     
  5. vegasqc

    vegasqc VIP Whale

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    you could always do it on the electronic roulette tables , no dealer so no one will know you are a team on those

    Most table have a 1 -500 limit but if you control the 8 chairs thats make you limit 4000$
     
  6. MikeOPensacola

    MikeOPensacola VIP Whale

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    +1 KC.... The inherent problem with the Martingale is the max limit. When it comes to roulette there are no systems. Period. Like KC said above you will eventually get to the point where the max bet will stymie you, and as sure as God made little green apples sooner or later you will lose that max bet and incur severe losses. Learn basic strategy for blackjack, or the standard bets at craps. Even VP, if played correctly is better than the 5.26% house edge at roulette.

    The casinos would have no problem with you doing this, in fact they welcome system players at roulette. Anything can happen in the short run, but over time this will be a colossal money loser.

    I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to pass on some good advice.

    If you do play roulette try placing straight up bets on numbers that are adjacent on the wheel. Try five or six numbers. This is not a system, but it has worked for me in the past.

    The biggest mistake a gambler can make is increase the size of their bets while losing. Streaks do happen, I like to increase my wagers while winning and leave the table once it turns cold.
     
    Annual Summer Bliss in the Land of Milk and Honey!!!
  7. dunebug81

    dunebug81 VIP Whale

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    horseshoe in chicago has $100,000 table limits. if you started at $100 you could go 10 rounds before hitting the table limit.

    100
    200
    400
    800
    1600
    3200
    6400
    12800
    25600
    51200


    would you lose ~$100,000? probably not....do you have the $100,000 bankroll to lose? probably not. seems insane to risk $100,00 to win a few hundred.
     
  8. Tellafriend

    Tellafriend High-Roller

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    and hence the idiocy of it all. I'm a wheel player. Trust me when i say they would be so on top of a group of folks trying this once they reached a few thousand, that once they lost THEN they'd be told not to play anymore. As for martingale, therein lies the problem.... I've seen games go 23 red in a row. So, you never know.
     
  9. matguy

    matguy High-Roller

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    Well, with 4 of us we could lose $409,600

    Bonus!

    But seriously, I was looking at smaller bet tables and starting the "team" as a duo of me and my girlfriend. I presume we could split the winnings fairly.

    If I could find a table with a $5 to $10 minimum and higher than a...

    Oh, wait, I made a typo on my original post. I meant a $500 limit.

    But, anyway, higher than, say, $1000 or $2000, while scary, it could be an interesting way to spend an evening. Double or quadruple that with a team and it could get more interesting, but more scary, of course.

    We did this a little last night, just at a local tribal casino, and I was able to triple my initial $40 to $120 in about an hour or less with just the basic Martingale on a $5 min, $500 max, table. I did some Excel simulations with just the standard random number generating within Excel and noticed that it went all over the place, though certainly better when the maximum was doubled.

    With some more simulations tonight it seemed like the best aggregate outcome came by playing for an hour with a $100 bankroll, doing the Martingale, but quitting if I exhausted my bankroll. (or simply starting over.) I don't know the exact odds or statistics, but over 50 or so spins, the simulation came out between $40 and $100 ahead most times, busting probably 1 in 5 sessions.
     
  10. MikeOPensacola

    MikeOPensacola VIP Whale

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    Roulette system players are preordained for disappointment. Not trying to be rude or insolent, but math is math and always will be math.
     
    Annual Summer Bliss in the Land of Milk and Honey!!!
  11. miller6pack

    miller6pack Newbie

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    I like roulette, but just like any game in Vegas,you might win, but they always get their money back. Just go, have your plans play your games and have a good time.
     
  12. y2mulder

    y2mulder Low-Roller

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    Martingale players end up face down in a pool of their own blood. Its just a matter of time. After 10 years in the business, I have seen 12-14 different black/red numbers line up a LOT, and there is no bankroll in the world that can survive that run. You will win $100-$200 many times, But I promise you....one day you will see hell on earth.

    Its much easier to just bet a few bucks and press a good run.

    DONT. Do. It.
     
  13. dunebug81

    dunebug81 VIP Whale

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    Even I you started at $5 and not $100 you would get an extra 4 spins or so....all to make $5. Even if you didn't come up against a 8-9 round losing streak you would walk out a winner of maybe $100 for the night and a couple of bucks worth of comps. That's a good amount of risk for almost zero reward.

    All that being said, if it's working for you than more power to you.

    Have you thought about doing this betting player at a baccarat table? While I've seen some monster runs in bac I would think that longer streaks don't happen as often due to the rules of the game. You can find $100-$20,000 tables all day long at MGM/Mandalay/Bellagio/Wynn etc
     
  14. miller6pack

    miller6pack Newbie

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    People can write books about how to win and the odds and all that bullsh"t'. If they knew how to win, they would be gambling and winning.not writing books. Just know your game and play it.And if you don't know your game,just play and have a good time.I have been going to Vegas for 30 years and never win, our son came a few years ago and hit 5000.00 on a 25 cent machine. Good for anybody that wins.
     
  15. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    Nobody is going to ask a Martingale player or 'team' to leave; they are going to be giving a suite and asked to stay for the week. Casinos LOVE these players.

    The problem with the Martingale isn't the table limit, the problem with the Martingale is in your winning sessions you might win 30 or 40 times your starting bet, (your example you walk away up $200), and when you finally have that losing session when your max bet STILL loses (you hit the table limit or don't have money to continue, remember, they want REAL money to play, not just play chips), you end up losing about 2X that top bet, in the example with $5000 max and 4 players your last 'group' bet was $20,000 and the total team loss on that run would be ~$40,475. Do you think you'd have the time/patience to attempt to get that $40,000 back $200 at a time (and still be at risk of losing ANOTHER $40,000).

    If you must try a system try the D'Alembert: Raise your bet by one unit after a loss, lower your bet one unit after a win. The idea is that if the table is choppy, you'll lose on your smaller bets and win on the larger ones. And don't DOUBLE your bet, just add a unit. Of course this, like any other 'system', doesn't improve your negative expectation at all, it merely modifies what your different sessions end up looking like. Either you get lots of small wins with a few big losses (Martingale), or the reverse: a few large wins with lots of small losses with systems that raise bets after wins.
     
  16. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Listen to tellafriend, y2mulder, and Wade.

    You'll end up living under an overpass.
     
  17. Vegas Twosome

    Vegas Twosome Tourist

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    Right on. Math is math. We try to have fun and extend play by only playing VP, BJ, Craps , and Mini Baccarat. We always have fun so extended play is a bonus. The "Wheel". No way.
     
  18. tacallian

    tacallian Low-Roller

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    Isn't the whole purpose of a table limit to be lined up with the quantity and denomination of chips that the dealer has in front of them? Higher limit needs more value in chips available. Short of ridiculously enormous bets in high limit areas, I can't imagine the casino being any more than inconvenienced by someone trying to play "outside the limit". The odds certainly don't change.
     
  19. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    Table limits also restrict the volatility the casino is willing to endure. Just because they have the advantage doesn't mean they want to accept any sized bet at any time. And yes, it makes it more sensible concerning the chips they keep in the rack. That begin said, it's still easy to find a $10/$3000 table with a stock of 40 or 60 $5000 chips, and a line of $1000 and $500 as well.

    They also like to limit very high betting to their high-limit salons where they can watch the action much more carefully, watching for any irregularities by the customers or dealers.
     
  20. Vegas Twosome

    Vegas Twosome Tourist

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