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Table Games Question regarding 6:5

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by mattjs33, Jan 31, 2016.

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  1. mattjs33

    mattjs33 Low-Roller

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    I've played some blackjack before, although just locally, very low-roller stuff. I've never gotten the nerve to play in Vegas for a lot of reasons but hope to someday. I'm certainly no expert player but I understand basic strategy. It's purely a recreational thing for me, and I used to tell people I enjoy the game enough that I would play even if there was no money involved. To that point, last March I got a blackjack app for my phone, and play that to pass downtime (obviously it's not real money).

    Again, I'm no expert on the game, so forgive me if this question seems a little naïve. But why is such a big deal made out of 6:5 blackjack?

    My app keeps stats on my play. I've played 41000-some hands, and have hit blackjack only 5% of those hands. However, it tells me I've doubled on 15% of my hands.

    Now admittedly there might be more limits on what you can double in a real casino vs. on the app. But it occurs to my novice brain that the way to make money on blackjack is to aggressively double and split as much is practical.

    Now certainly anyone would prefer 3:2 over 6:5, but on a play that effects only 5% of your total hands, I just don't see how it draws the type of ire I see here about it, to the tune of, "Avoid a 6:5 game at all costs".

    Genuinely interested in discussion from those with more insight/experience.
     
  2. Franken Dean

    Franken Dean Newbie

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    For a $10 player, you are only giving away $15 every 100 hands.

    For me, its the principle of them gouging us on a basic long time rule. It also lessens the excitement for the player, and reduces the dealers tips IMO.

    I boycoitt so they will change the placard to a 3/2 game.
     
  3. sabre

    sabre Low-Roller

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    If you play 60 hands/hr, then you expect about 3 blackjacks/hr. Play at a $10 table and that's $9/hr disappearing into the ether. For what? Is 6:5 BJ more fun than 3:2? No. So don't play it.
     
  4. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Play around with this and it might help you understand Wizard of Odds house edge calculator.

    I'd also recommend that you look up some basic strategy materials, but you are not going to 'make money on blackjack', and there is a limit to how aggressive you should be with splits and doubles.


    As for why people take it so personally, that is how people react when you change a deal they had come to expect for the worse. As for telling others to avoid it at all costs, because people want better games and are so angry, they get mad that others still play this game. Casinos offer this game because people will play it. So naturally people who hate this rule want everyone to stop playing it.

    At a typical table, this rule will cost you one to one and a half betting units per hour.
     
  5. mattjs33

    mattjs33 Low-Roller

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    I guess I was using "make money at blackjack" as a turn of phrase, but I get your point.

    I appreciate the feedback guys.

    Unfortunately, as I see discussed a lot here, a lot of vacationing recreational players are going to play the 6:5 without care, and that's what you're up against.

    At what bet level do you typically see 3:2 tables, on the Strip?
     
  6. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

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    If you're betting green+, finding 3:2 strip tables should be pretty easy.

    As for the cost of 6:5 versus 3:2?
    What others have posted is fairly accurate, but a bit deceiving.
    Yes, a $10 player will forfeit about $10-to-$15 an hour playing 6:5. That makes it sound like it's not that big of a deal... and if you only play blackjack for an hour while on a Vegas trip, I suppose that's true.

    But someone like me - who typically plays 10-to-12 hours of $10 blackjack per day on a three day trip, that's a minimum of 30 hours of play... so, I'd be giving up $300 to $450 for the trip.
    For most of my trips, that is the difference between having a losing trip and a winning one.
    I don't consider that insignificant at all!
     
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  7. akhoya362

    akhoya362 Low-Roller

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    I play mostly at MGM, and I've seen 3:2 at $50 or higher. Sometimes $25 if it's super-slow. But then again, I've stuck to mostly DD BJ, so YMMV.

    One other thing about 6:5 blackjack is that it warps some people's basic strategy play. Some people think it's better to double-down on a 6:5 BJ than just take the 6:5 payout. I personally think that's the wrong move, but I can see why people would do it.

    Treasure Island still has 3:2 and is on the Strip, so there's that.
     
  8. 44inarow

    44inarow VIP Whale

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    As another data point, at Aria it's generally easy to find $25 3:2 at slower periods, during which DD is $50; otherwise, $50 or so to regularly find 3:2.

    It's really just the principle of the thing. This is a game that was designed to result in a house edge of X%. They've taken the game, and changed nothing except what it pays out, and the difference, while small on a percentage-point basis, is still significant on a relative basis. It's raising prices for the sake of raising prices. It's like if your favorite pizza place used to charge $5, but now charges $10.
     
  9. bobby jones

    bobby jones Low-Roller

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    I have not done the math but, if you are a $10 dollar level player and the only way to move to 3:2 (on strip) is to move up to a $25 table, what is your expected -ve return then?

    If your expected additional loss per hour at $10 flat bets is $10 moving from 3:2 to 6:5, you have to offset that with your increased expected loss per hour moving form $10 to $25 assuming flat betting. I would expect in isolation, the expected loss for an hour at 6:5 at $10 is less than the expected loss of $25 at 3:2. So for joe tourist, you have to make a decision - play $10 table at 6:5, play $25 table at 3:2 or move off strip to bet $10. For a few hours of BJ on a three day trip, would you hop on the Deuce to save $10? If you are are an eight hour kind of BJ player like topcard, then decision is different.

    Great move by the casinos - Joe tourist is still going to play 6:5, serious guys are probably not playing $10 tables anyway, some guys will move up from $10 to $25 and the decent players playing 8 hour days at a $10 table were worth gross @ $240 to the casino less direct costs and indirect costs - no big loss. 12:11 coming soon to a strip casino near you:)
     
  10. 44inarow

    44inarow VIP Whale

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    Another thing to add is that though blackjacks are a small number of your overall hands, the added payout is still a big chunk of your expected outcome. It's sort of like with video poker, where even though a royal comes only once every ~40,000 hands, the fact that it pays out 800:1 at max bet, as opposed to 250:1 at fewer credits, is why 9/6 has a payback of 99.5% as opposed to a couple percentage points lower.
     
  11. Scottndindy

    Scottndindy Low-Roller

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    While expected loss may be less playing 25 3:2 vs 10 6:5 your risk of ruin is dramatically higher unless you have adequate bankroll. I can't tell you the number of times I see people sit down and do not have enough units to play with a reasonable expectation of coming out ahead.
     
  12. johnvic

    johnvic VIP Whale

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    I don't think my math is perfect here but it's a shot. I used the Wizard's house edge calculator and assumed 3 hours at 60 hands per hour. I also assumed 6 deck, H17, DAS, NoSurr, the only difference between the 2 games is 3:2 vs. 6:5. I did not account for double downs and splits because I don't have a simulator. Anyway:

    3:2 - house edge of .639% at $25 = $.16 loss per hand times 180 hands = $28.76 loss
    6:5 - house edge of 2% at $10 = $.20 loss per hand times 180 hands = $36.00 loss

    I'm sure this is not perfect by far but it's a shot.
     
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  13. RockyBalboa

    RockyBalboa VIP Whale

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    I won't play it on principle just as I will no longer play craps at The Wynn

    I hate the degradation of rules and while I'm not even a ripple in the pond to them I voice my displeasure by not playing
     
  14. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Yeah, if $25 min was required for 3:2 then cheaper 6:5 has an argument if you're looking to keep session losses down. But some CET properties offer 3:2 as low as $10 minimum (Bally's during slower periods), and Margaritaville at Flamingo is usually 3:2 at $15 minimum. I would try to seek these games out first.
     
  15. Neb

    Neb Newbie

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    6:5 is about three times as expensive to play as 3:2. Does that sound like a good deal to you?
     
  16. eksantirik

    eksantirik Low-Roller

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    If we have people, even on this board, who doesn't even have a small doubt that 6:5 blackjack is bad for them, then I'm guessing even money blackjack days are closer than one might think!
     
  17. johnvic

    johnvic VIP Whale

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    The $10 6:5 is more of a loss than the $25 3:2
     
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  18. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Yes, but it begins getting close when you compare the two. And there is $5 6:5 available as well where one would lose less vs. $25 min 3:2. I would still look for 3:2, but someone on a limited budget stuck on the strip could consider min betting 6:5 BJ. But like I said sub $25 3:2 BJ can still be found on the strip.
     
  19. johnvic

    johnvic VIP Whale

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    Gotcha, I misunderstood and thought you misunderstood.
     
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  20. flamingogo

    flamingogo Tourist

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    $15 is readily available at CET properties: Bally's, Paris, PH, Harrah's, Flamingo has a lot of 6:5 but a couple of 3:2 tables. Even Caesars has $10 (6-deck) at slower times. Tropicana (not CET) has 3:2 tables too.

    If you're off the strip, there's plenty of more options: Downtown, Palms, Hard Rock, etc.
     
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