1. Welcome to VegasMessageBoard
    It appears you are visiting our community as a guest.
    In order to view full-size images, participate in discussions, vote in polls, etc, you will need to Log in or Register.

Question about court ruling regarding Sports Betting in AC

Discussion in 'Non-Vegas Hotels & Casinos' started by PaulBowdry, Aug 31, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. PaulBowdry

    PaulBowdry Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2014
    Messages:
    181
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    12
    I have read the court has ruled against New Jersey in their bid to make sports gambling legal in that state. My question is I am not understanding the legal grounds on which pro sport leagues are arguing against this? They allow betting in Nevada and that is okay with the pro leagues. I am not understanding how a Federal court can ban certain activities in some states but allow them in others. If anybody could explain this for me I would appreciate it.
     
  2. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2010
    Messages:
    10,096
    Location:
    At the tables
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    30
  3. PaulBowdry

    PaulBowdry Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2014
    Messages:
    181
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    12
    Hey thanks I get it now. I don't see how paspa is constitutional. But that's a whole other discussion with courts. I wonder if New Jersey will try and chance it like it said in the article.
     
  4. Brick

    Brick Low-Roller

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    281
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    10
    It's constitutional because the Constitution gives Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce. Without that little carve out protecting states that already had sports gambling, Nevada would be barred from taking sports bets too. That's why sports books have those signs warning against the transmission of wagering information via telephone. Interstate phone lines = interstate commerce.
     
  5. hammie

    hammie VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2006
    Messages:
    2,380
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    5
    Delaware allows parlay betting on NFL games but there is a 3 game minimum. Some bars and restaurants sell parlay cards.
     
  6. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2010
    Messages:
    10,096
    Location:
    At the tables
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    30
    what part of walking up to a cage, giving them cash and getting a ticket is interstate commerce?
     
  7. Brick

    Brick Low-Roller

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    281
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    10
    It's not. Placing an in-person bet at the sports book or cashing in a ticket in person is not interstate activity. It is purely local. But you can't call up the MGM sportsbook or any other sportsbook by phone and place a bet. That involves wires and interstate communication whether your dialing in from Las Vegas or Los Angeles.

    I agree that it makes no sense to prohibit New Jersey from taking and paying in-person bets. That is what we do in Vegas. The problem is that NJ came to the party late and did not have enough political muscle (or lobbyist $$) to get its own little carve out back in 1992 when PASPA was enacted.

    Congress has a lot of power to regulate almost any economic activity. Some of it (or a lot of it) makes no sense -- such as why you can mail in a winning ticket from outside of Nevada and get paid by check but not make a bet by phone -- but when Congress makes a law it is presumed valid unless a federal court finds they have exceeded their enumerated powers.

    Look at medicinal marijuana. Legal in over 25 states. Still illegal under federal law. Dispensaries can't legally pay taxes on the income because it is technically illegal activity. Why? A little law called the Controlled Substances Act doesn't care about your state law. Nor does Congress. To Congress, common sense does not matter. Unless the Article III federal courts tell them to stop or the President vetoes a proposed law, congress is pretty much free to do what it wants. Nowadays, it's members (our distinguished House of Representatives and Senators) doesn't do a damned thing except collect paychecks and take long vacations.

    Sorry this is such a long post. I developed an interest in Constitutional power during HS and still read a lot on political powers. That and Vegas history.
     
  8. Its Only Money

    Its Only Money Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2007
    Messages:
    636
    Location:
    Ohio
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    10
    Brick, what is the difference between a phone line and WIFI or T1 cable? In the state of Nevada (or I suppose with a Nevada IP address) you can place sports wagers on-line. All sates that had operated casinos for the 10 years previous to 1992 had until 12/31/93 to determine what they wanted to do in terms of sports gambling. This year to determine your future was specifically designed for NJ.

    NJ and every other state that wishes to pursue sports gambling should not have to be bound by an arbitrary deadline set up by congress in 1992. My understanding of the law has always been that if a state had specific laws about sports gambling those laws take precedence over the federal law. However if you had no law specifically outlawing or allowing gambling, you as a state gave up your right to regulate sports gambling. Therein lies the problem, pre-1992 is was completely a state prerogative like all other gambling, post 1992 only Oregon, Nevada, Montana and Delaware have that state right.

    States should either have the right to regulate gambling or not. It seems pretty obvious that they have had that right all along and still do with everything except sports gambling (jai alai, horse and dog racing excluded). The sports carve out created in 1992 goes directly against the states rights.

    My understanding of PAPSA could be incorrect so feel free to correct me.
     
    I need one more trip to up my frequent flier level
  9. zoobrew

    zoobrew Tourist

    Joined:
    May 13, 2015
    Messages:
    82
    The real reason that the states won't go against the fed on sports gambling is that the FEDs control the banking system. If a casino in NJ offered sports betting, even if legal in NJ, the FEDS have the legal right to seize all the assets that casino has in the banking system. It is the same reason that the major tobacco companies are not into the marijuana business.
     
  10. lithium78

    lithium78 High-Roller

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2013
    Messages:
    899
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    4
    If the NJ sports betting case ever made it to the US Supreme Court, the PAPSA law should be thrown out. It is obviously unconstitutional to favor some states over others on this issue.
     
  11. Brick

    Brick Low-Roller

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    281
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    10
    Federal law is supreme to state law under the Supremacy Clause. The states that have sports wagering are only allowed to do it because Congress approved it. Good point about the online wagering within the state of Nevada. Again, the Feds have allowed Nevada a carve out. But they don't allow out of state bettors to use the online services and track the IP addresses used. Technically, you could use a proxy server or something to make it seem like you were making a bet from Nevada but if the Feds catch you, look out.

    Zoo brew is right about the banking laws having strict prohibitions on accepting or arranging payments for online betting. Even sites like Bovada have to use creative methods to accept payments since technically banks are not allowed to process those transactions. A lot of these regulations are fear-based and stem from the old wire act days with Bugsy Siegel and others controlling sports information to fund criminal enterprises.

    I agree that PAPSA is inconsistent and arbitrary. It makes sense to allow states to determine their best interests in raising revenue and regulation. But as long as there is a vocal opposition that can raise concerns about bookmaking operations or negative consequences from gambling in their communities, it will be hard to overturn PAPSA.
     
  12. Brick

    Brick Low-Roller

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    281
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    10
    I agree. But congress has the power to ignore reason and common sense. Same thing with medicinal marijuana. States like California, Kentucky and Oregon could really benefit from taxing and regulating the medicinal crop as a means of paying for public works projects like schools and roads but again Congress does not care to revisit the Controlled Substances Act. They should. They could. But they won't.
     
  13. Brick

    Brick Low-Roller

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    281
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    10
    U.S. Representative Frank Pallone Jr. is questioning the legality of fantasy sports:

    http://www.law360.com/sports/articles/702659?nl_pk=5f5dae44-ccca-4f37-bef7-10248800b950&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=sports

    A U.S. representative from New Jersey wants to know how fantasy sports are different from gambling, and in light of an estimated 57 million people in the U.S. And Canada who will participate in a fantasy league this year, he's asked the House Energy and Commerce Committee to figure out just that.

    In a letter sent to House Energy and Commerce Committee chairman Fred Upton and subcommittee chairman Michael Burgess, Congressman Frank Pallone Jr., D-NJ, who has advocated for legalized, regulated pro sports betting in New Jersey, asked the committee to hold a hearing to discuss how fantasy sports websites differ from gambling and online sports betting, which are prohibited under federal law.

    “Despite how mainstream these sites have become … the legal landscape governing these activities remains murky and should be reviewed,” Pallone said.

    “Fans are currently allowed to risk money on the performance of an individual player. How is that different than wagering money on the outcome of a game?” he added.

    On fantasy sports sites, users can create teams of real professional athletes online, chosen from a roster, and compete against other virtual teams based on players’ performance throughout a sports season.

    While some leagues are free, others require an entry fee, and allow users to win cash prizes for winning outcomes, Pallone said. But although sports betting is banned in most states and online gambling, online sports betting and interstate sports betting are prohibited, fantasy sports are exempted from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act.

    They have even been embraced by professional sports leagues like the NBA and MLB, both of whom have purchased stakes in daily fantasy sports operators, despite their recent involvement in lawsuits seeking to stop sports wagering at casinos and racetracks, the letter said.

    A number of teams have also formed partnership with fantasy sports operators, including 16 NBA teams and 27 of 30 MLB teams, Pallone noted.

    “Professional sports' deep involvement with daily fantasy sports leaves many questioning whether fantasy sports are distinguishable from sports betting and other forms of gambling,” Pallone said in the letter.

    The representative raised a question about whether players involved in the games should be able to participate in fantasy sports leagues centered around those games, pointing out that many NFL players participate in leagues, while the MLB and NHL ban their players from participating and the NBA and its players’ union disagree on the issue.

    He also pointed out that some figures involved in professional sports have called for renewed conversation about legalizing sports betting.

    In August, the Third Circuit shut down New Jersey’s attempt to allow unregulated sports betting in a much-anticipated decision, though experts said that while the move slows its momentum, legalized sports betting is still on the horizon.

    NBA Commissioner Adam Silver has already come out publicly in support of regulated sports betting, pointing to how sports betting is a thriving industry in Europe. MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred has also made statements in support of sports betting that, while more tempered than Silver’s, are still a stark departure from baseball’s long-held anti-betting stance.

    The 2-1 decision by the Third Circuit found that a 2014 New Jersey law partially repealing its sports betting prohibition amounted to an “authorization” of sports betting in violation of the federal Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act of 1992.

    Sports betting in the U.S. has long been associated with organized crime and underground bookmakers, but with sentiments beginning to change, momentum is building for its legalization in what could be a cash cow for professional sports leagues.

    Daily fantasy sports, meanwhile, also known as DFS, is booming across the country with leading companies DraftKings Inc. and FanDuel Inc. making sponsorship and equity deals with leagues and teams, a trend that suggests widespread legalized betting can work and that leagues’ previous, hard-line stance against sports betting could be softening.
     
  14. Its Only Money

    Its Only Money Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2007
    Messages:
    636
    Location:
    Ohio
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    10
    F'ing hypocrites. That's all I have to say about that.
     
    I need one more trip to up my frequent flier level
  15. Brick

    Brick Low-Roller

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    281
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    10
    Draft Kings and other DFS in Mass. Attorney General's sights:

    Law360, New York (September 17, 2015, 6:12 PM ET) -- Jumping into the debate over the proliferation of fantasy sports websites, Massachusetts Attorney General Maura Healey will examine whether a Boston-based fantasy sports site can be legally operated within the state, her office confirmed Thursday.

    In an interview with State House News Service, Healey, who has previously spoken out against casinos, said her office is looking into the legality of DraftKings Inc., which has received investments from Fox Sports, the MLB, the NHL and Major League Soccer.

    “The point is this: this is a new industry. It’s something that we’re reviewing, and we’ll learn more about it,” she told the outlet.

    A spokesperson from Healey’s office confirmed her statements to the outlet on Thursday.

    The statement by Healey, who has issued statements against casinos in the past, calling them “bad economic policy,” comes just days after U.S. Rep. Frank Pallone Jr., D-N.J., who has advocated for legalized, regulated pro sports betting in New Jersey, sent a letter to House Energy and Commerce Committee chairman Fred Upton and subcommittee chairman Michael Burgess asking the committee to hold a hearing to discuss how fantasy sports websites differ from gambling and online sports betting, which are prohibited under federal law.

    In his letter, Pallone said an estimated 57 million people in the U.S. and Canada will participate in a fantasy league this year, but said the legal landscape surrounding fantasy sites “remains murky and should be reviewed.”

    “Fans are currently allowed to risk money on the performance of an individual player. How is that different than wagering money on the outcome of a game?” he asked.

    Fantasy sports games fall under an exception to the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act because they rely largely on a participant's knowledge and skill in choosing his or her fantasy team. But shorter-duration games, such as the daily fantasy sports games offered by DraftKings and FanDuel, hinge much more on luck than skill.

    State gambling laws differ on the distinction between games of chance and skill, but some experts say a crackdown on the industry is imminent.

    In July, DraftKings itself completed a Series D funding round that brought in $300 million, led by investments from Fox Sports, professional sports leagues and private equity investors including the MLB, the NHL and Major League Soccer.

    DraftKings operates daily fantasy sports games that allow users to win cash by choosing a lineup of players in a sport and earning points based on the players' actual statistical performance. The company makes a profit by taking a cut of the cash pooled in these fantasy competitions.

    The popularity of such games has been growing quickly in the last few years, with plenty of interest from sports and media partners. DraftKings inked a promotional deal with ESPN Inc. in June, after rumors that The Walt Disney Co. was interested in becoming an equity investor in the company. It also has promotional deals with MLB, the NHL and several individual sports teams.

    Rival operator FanDuel Inc. completed a $275 million funding round last month, shortly after announcing multiyear partnerships with 13 NBA teams and 16 NFL teams.

    Yahoo also said recently that it will offer its own daily fantasy games with cash prizes.

    But as the industry continues to grow, legal questions are cropping up.

    In August, the Third Circuit shut down New Jersey’s attempt to allow unregulated sports betting in a much-anticipated decision, though experts said that while the move slows its momentum, legalized sports betting is still on the horizon.
     
  16. Its Only Money

    Its Only Money Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2007
    Messages:
    636
    Location:
    Ohio
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    10
    Where did this article come from. Is there anything behind the assertion that a crackdown is imminent? Why does the author think a shorter duration takes less skill. Seems more like opinion than anything else to me.
     
    I need one more trip to up my frequent flier level
  17. Brick

    Brick Low-Roller

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    281
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    10
    The article is from the legal newspaper Law 360. I'm not sure if a crackdown is imminent but DFS is definitely being watched closely by prominent lawmakers in at least 2 states -- New Jersey and Massachusetts. Since Draft Kings is based in Boston, the AG has more power to regulate it than other sites and businesses. If she can convince the state tax board or another entity to also take a closer look at Draft Kings, it is possible that additional regulation could be imposed.

    I agree that the author's point about "more luck than skill" sounds like opinion. But with the NJ case being reconsidered, plus the recent statements by Rep. Pallone and the Massachusetts AG, those DFS companies are on the radar. They might not be outlawed per se but they could be taxed harder. With hundreds of millions of dollars in play, these companies are definitely gonna get a closer look.
     
  18. Brick

    Brick Low-Roller

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    281
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    10
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.