1. Welcome to VegasMessageBoard
    It appears you are visiting our community as a guest.
    In order to view full-size images, participate in discussions, vote in polls, etc, you will need to Log in or Register.

Odds bets on craps

Discussion in 'Comps' started by Travis, Aug 23, 2016.

  1. Travis

    Travis Tourist

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2013
    Messages:
    10
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    1
    Last week I'm sure CET was counting them at full value (I played mostly at Caesars and PH, a bit at Cromwell). There is no way I could have gotten my average bet up near what they had without odds. That makes some sense to me, because I always thought that I was given rooms for fairly low play. I still don't get squat for tier or reward credits, but at least they are willing to give me a free midweek room. They also gave back around $150 in food charged to the room. I don't pay resort fees, have diamond through Founders Card.
     
  2. Electroguy563

    Electroguy563 Over-Fried Gambler

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    3,594
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    15
    That's Great! Take what you can get. Usually they don't count the odds when rating you. At least where I play anyway.
     
    Going to Hawaii's 9th Island!!
    Going to Hawaii's 9th island!!
  3. SH0CK

    SH0CK Stylin' and Profilin' Quasi Tech Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    12,927
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    37
    If you were tipping the dealers fairly regularly, a lot of times your average bet may be adjusted more in your favor also. ;)
     
  4. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,072
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    16
    There's no free lunch in including odds in the rating that gets quoted to you. You don't earn comps on odds bets except indirectly if you get unlucky and your odds bets cause you to have an actual loss that's many multiples of your theo loss.
     
  5. Travis

    Travis Tourist

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2013
    Messages:
    10
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    1
    If you don't count odds, the most I ever had on the table was $170, and that was only if I had enough come bets on to cover all 6 points. The host said they had me at an average of $220. I pretty much put $10 on the pass, bet a semi-continuous come bet, and placed the 6 and 8 for $60 each about half the time. Always full odds on my pass and come.
     
  6. Jackpot Johnny

    Jackpot Johnny Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2016
    Messages:
    172
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    170
    I think Chuck has it exactly right. When the supervisors are alert enough to see your cash in and color up departure, (or markers) they'll often give you a rating break if you actually lost, as Chuck said, as opposed to theo. Of course, the casino has no advantage on odds bets, but when I'm losing I've often seen my 'average bet' magically increase. In general, I think your overall ratings and comps are higher when they know you actually lost, as opposed to just your theo and average bets.
     
  7. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,072
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    16
    Mostly what I'm getting at is there's no advantage to choosing a place that counts odds in the amount they quote back to you as your average bet, vs. a place that doesn't. If Chain A counts craps odds and Chain B doesn't, then your "$150 average bet at craps" at Chain A means nothing to Chain B.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Travis

    Travis Tourist

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2013
    Messages:
    10
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    1
    Chuck I don't understand your last comment. Could you clarify? I'm trying to get this figured out, and I will readily admit I could be wrong, because my experience was not what I expected.

    I did have some slot play, which is unusual for me. The host didn't mention that, but she did say that they look for $150/bet for 4 hours a day at the tables. I was well under my time, but my average bet was above what they looked for, plus whatever bonus they gave me for the slots. I was a net loser, although in the last 12 months I'm probably about square with CET, I had a nice trip last October and hit a great roll while I was at my local in February.

    I want to take out my personal experience. Just going by what she said, $150 average bet for 4 hours (this is at Caesars, I'm assuming it would be lower at other CET properties) was generally enough for back end comps unless I misunderstood her. And they had me at $220. I didn't get the impression that she knew or cared about the breakdown of my bets, she only cared about the $150. So you can get to $150 pretty easily with 3-4 come bets, which is probably less $50 that isn't odds.

    At that level, the expected loss is less than the cost of the room. Also, this is literally the first time I have ever bet on place bets, and I never bet anything inside. Occasionally I do fire and small/tall/all, although usually only $1 and not all that often. During the week the TR website almost always has free rooms at RIO/Flamingo level for me, sometimes at PH/Paris level, very occasionally at Caesars, never at Cromwell or Nobu. Also almost never anywhere on weekends. So those rooms are being offered to someone who until this trip is a minimum bettor on passline and come, which is $10 in Vegas and only $5 at my local.

    Just throwing out some additional info. I want to understand this better.

    Thanks.
     
  9. Jackpot Johnny

    Jackpot Johnny Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2016
    Messages:
    172
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    170

    Your theo is less than the cost of the room to you, but not to them. The cheapest comp they can give you is a room which would otherwise have been empty-their overhead on that is low.

    I'll add that it's really, really hard to stand at a craps table for four hours a day, at least it is for me. I've always thought craps is the "hard way" to earn comps.
     
  10. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,072
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    16

    What I'm getting at is this:

    Say you're at a $25 table and you play for an hour and the point is always 6 and you always bet $125 in odds.

    Assume the comp value of a room at Caesars is the same as at MGM Grand, and that all of the other little nuances in the difference between CET offers and MLife offers don't exist.

    At Caesars, the box guy tells you your rating is $150
    At MGM Grand, the box guy tells you your rating is $25

    You're going to get the same comps from both, you're not going to get 6x better offers from CET.

    It's not quite accurate to call the $150 number "inflated," because that IS your average bet.

    But you're going to get the same room offers from both. So there's no reason to favor one over the other just because one includes odds in your rating and the other doesn't. Caesars' box guy enters your info in a fashion so the system knows (approximately at least) how much of your average is exposed to the house edge and how much isn't.

    ETA: I read more closely about your conversation with the host. Almost any hotel will quote you $100 a hand at craps for 4 hours to cover a standard room, and I expect that will be going up, it's been a long time since I asked, but I wouldn't be surprised if the higher end places are quoting $150 now (even though it probably doesn't really take that much). And most places do not count odds. And I have never had a box man at Caesars or anywhere else on the strip include odds when quoting my rating.

    So I would expect the $150 number she quoted you as a minimum did not include odds, because it's way too easy to get to if you include odds. So I would think your rating did not include odds and actually did get inflated, like Shock said, tipping well can do that, or like Johnny said the box takes pity cause you got killed (or just likes you) or you just happen to get lucky and whenever he's looking at your bets they were high. I've had that happen for all of those various reasons at one time or another.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Sydney10

    Sydney10 Tourist

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    92
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    40
    CET counts all money on the craps table. The pit does not enter 1 number representing your bets. There are 3 components to their average bet. Odds are included in your average bet amount, but they are not generating theo at the same rate as Center action. If you play the same at both CET and mlife, the theo generated from craps is probably similar.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  12. Nittany1

    Nittany1 VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,817
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    81
    This says it all!
     
  13. Naturaleight

    Naturaleight High-Roller

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    706
    Location:
    NYC
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    10
    No offense Chuck, but I couldn't disagree with you more. I know of a place in town that DOES count your odds in your average bet, and they comp based off it. My $100 line bet with odds, the casino has me losing $1,000 an hour by their formula, which of course we know is ridiculous. They also comp base off of that.

    I don't think they're that stupid because they garner a lot of the crap action they otherwise wouldn't, but I keep shaking my head everytime I come back and the things I get from this casino make the proposition more than +EV.
     
  14. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,072
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    16
    I would keep the name under wraps. :beer: