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MLife Table Game Tier Accrual Rate

Discussion in 'Comps' started by Kickin, Jun 30, 2013.

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  1. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    I just finished a good and profitable trip and this time I decided to keep accurate track of every game I played along with the associated numbers so now have a ton of data I can play around around with when I get a chance. But I also went over my play and gathered whatever numbers I could from them before I checked out.

    I found out that the actual tier point accrual rate for all table players is 30 TCs per $1 theo. So very close to the 33 number we've had floating around here from working people's numbers backwards. I got this number directly from an internal booklet they have on the program which they let me look at but unfortunately could not let me keep.

    This was a good trip because I was able to generate very little theo while having a good win of about 40x my average BJ bet (this was overall net win over all games including VP). My hourly theo for BJ came out to about 52.5% of my average bet which is inline with what others have posted. My rated table play was strictly BJ at $100 or $200 tables with good rules, either shoe or double deck. I played some other table games but that was all unrated so the numbers are only from lowest edge BJ games. So it worked out to 15.75 TCs per dollar bet per hour.
     
  2. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    so that means that $9 in slots = 30 TCs = $1 theo at tables. so they're figuring their hold percentage on the slots is just over 11%. however, $9 in slots gets you $0.03 in ECs, while $1 in theo at the tables should get you $0.05 if the 5% value is correct.
     
  3. dankyone

    dankyone VIP Whale

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    Very good info, looks close to what I have calculated based on my own play.

    Are they still saying discretionary comps = 7x ECs? This is also helpful info to have.
     
  4. firebchilly

    firebchilly Tourist

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    all tables? so based on what ya said high house edge games like american roulette would be equal to low house edge games like craps and baccarat? that dont sound right at all
     
  5. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    But you also get some PointPlay (FP) if you're playing the machines. I'm guessing its somewhere around even. Also to the OP, is this taking into account your accelerated earnings as you moved up tiers (Pearl, Gold)?

    What I still want to know on slots at Mlife, is whether the specialty machines are treated differently for your ADT. I know they accumulate ECs and TCs slower, but is 10k coin in on a specialty machine treated the same as 10k on a old three reel machine? At in terms of ADT and offers/primary comps?
     
  6. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    I'm Platinum so the accelerated earnings add 30% to my EC and PP (for machine play) but they don't add to the TC earning rate. So those numbers are the same for everyone.

    I don't know about the theo calculation for specialty slots though if I had to guess I'd say that at least the comp ratio is lower (if not overall theo calc) since the PP and EC rate is lower, and those are just portions of your overall comp in the first place.

    dankyone I unfortunately forgot to ask about the overall comp ratio and proportion of ECs. I assume its the same 5% and 35% but now I realize I completely forgot to ask about that. In my head I probably didn't want to broach the subject of comps too much since I knew I had very little theo in the first place.

    By the way if you're interested in your numbers, they can actually give you the breakdown for each individual session in terms of your average bet, time, and TCs earned. Which could be interesting to look at if you play multiple types of table games so you can compare the different overall theos generated.
     
  7. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    you're confused. theo is a constant. the difference is you earn theo faster or slower depending on what game you're playing.
     
  8. meyers67

    meyers67 High-Roller

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    The M-life brochure stated that $25 BJ for an hour would give you 550 TCs.

    That comes out to 22 TCs per dollar bet per hour (not 15.75). Perhaps it varies based on the BJ rules??
     
  9. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    wasn't that brochure put out under the old system, though? they've definitely lowered the earning rate with the Oct 2012 changes.
     
  10. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    Yeah that was the number under the original system, they don't even put that number in the brochure any more. However the 30 TCs per $1 theo would apply to everyone, the TCs per dollar bet was just my number. That can easily vary for different people based on the speed of the game, rules, etc. assuming they take all that into account. If I played my same game but it was dealt twice as fast the TCs per dollar bet should theoretically be twice as high as well since my theo would be twice as high.

    So as far as speed of the game goes, just for reference the tables I played at were usually with one other person. I played a little bit alone and a little bit with 2 others at the table, but I'd say 80% of the time with just one other player.

    Oh another interesting thing - after learning from this board to ask the pit boss what he had me down for, I only did it once when another guy at my table asked and for both of us he gave the range he had us in the system for, not our actual average. For me he said he had me at $100-$300 (which was fair) and for the other guy from $200-$1200. I think that's a good way to do it for you guys who vary your bets a lot. Makes it more likely that your big bets will be included in your average.
     
  11. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    that's how they all keep track of your bets as your playing, but in the end they come up with a single number to put in the computer. he was just being coy trying to avoid giving you an actual number. when they do that to me, I come up with a specific number I want and say, "how about $X?". 90% of the time they'll say OK if it's reasonable or sometimes, they'll say something lower and then I usually say something like didn't you see all those big bets, etc.
     
  12. mansam

    mansam Tourist

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    Very Interesting Thread ~ maybe you can verify/help a scenario. Blackjack at $100 per hand, estimating 40 hands per hour (is that about right depending on how many players) ~ $4,000 per hour x 1% (house advantage?) x 4 hours = $1,600 x 40% (comp rate?) = approx. $640 in casino comps?

    And regarding Mlife TC, how many TC points would that add up to?
    Am I way off?

    One thing I have learned over the years, especially at higher end casinos (WynnCore) you definitely need to check with pit boss & ask what they have you figured at when you leave the table. And if you're playing 2 hands, make sure they know that too!

    Thank you!
     
  13. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    40 hands per hour? no way. if you're playing alone, you can easily do 3-4x that without thinking. even a full table is going to be closer to 2x that number.

    also, your math is off by a factor of 10. if you put in play 4k per hour for 4 hours at a 1% HA it would be $160 theo x 40% comps = $64 in comps.

    the general number that I've found is you take your avg bet for 4 hours and you get a little bit more than that back in comps. so $100 avg for 4 hours ~= $120 in comps.
     
  14. dankyone

    dankyone VIP Whale

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    Thanks again, KC. I personally am not convinced at all that they take game speed or rules into account when they do these ratings.

    When I calculate theo myself for the game you and I play, I use 0.26% HA and 100 hands per hour. What they come up with for theo is about double what I calculate. I SUSPECT, but cannot really confirm, that they use 1% HA (assuming correctly that many people make a lot of mistakes) and 50 hands an hour (intentionally trying to short us).

    Or, they may be using 0.5% house advantage and 100 hands an hour. Either way, the theo they calculate is double what I think mine is, and I am getting 80% of what I think my theo is comped back from mlife.
     
  15. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Very nice job Kickin'.

    I was gonna do some timed sessions on my trip in a couple of weeks, now I don't have to.

    :nworthy: :beer: :nworthy:
     
  16. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    This is always the number I expected they used, but that's not based on anything other than being simple round numbers that sound reasonable.

    Now that I know I can get the TCs for any particular session (and just divide that by 30 to get theo), I'd love to clock a single session's number of hands. That's the only unknown variable I need in terms of figuring out my actual theo. I'd like to compare it to what they get.

    By the way they probably do incorporate your skill level into BJ ratings. I think it was VegasBJ who mentioned seeing it in the MGM systems and I saw it in the CET systems in AC.
     
  17. RC

    RC Low-Roller

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    Kickin - I think that they are definitely including a skill level into the BJ ratings. The reason I say this is that the last time that I played at the low HA shoe games at the MGM I calculated my TCs per dollar bet as only 10.93, which is very different from what you and some of the other people have calculated.

    RC
     
  18. VegasBJ

    VegasBJ VIP Whale

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    skill factor in BJ is definitely factored in as when I review my play I am told that .50% is used as the HA when factoring the theo. Bacc generates much more theo than BJ even if you are playing 10-20 BJ hands for every one hand of Bacc that is played.
     
  19. dankyone

    dankyone VIP Whale

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    I am very curious about this "skill factor" component of the ratings. I think conventional wisdom states there are three ratings--novice/idiot, average/basic strategist, and skilled player/someone we might be considering backing off at some point. I think 99%+ of players are probably put down as average without too much analysis unless they suspect you of being a counter. Perhaps RC is down as a "skilled player." Does anyone else have evidence that they are identified as such? (Clearly the most expert players can be booted from the tables, I am looking for someone who is allowed to play, receives comps, but believes the hotel looks at their theo differently than others.)
     
  20. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    Yeah, that's pretty much it from what I saw on the Caesars system in AC. The computers are attached to each table and I was sitting next to it and it was tilted towards me. He never changed the skill setting for anyone he swiped into the machine and the default just said "Average". He did come around once in a while and mess with the machine, but I never saw what he was changing.

    But its interesting that VegasBJ was told 0.50% is what's used to calculate theo at MGM. That's usually the number I figured they used so its good to have some confirmation.

    As far as RC's number, it could be a skill issue or it could just be a speed issue if they factor that in. I think they do factor in different speeds because its not something they would have to input, that's something the computer can take care of on its own based on how many players are at the table. If he played at a fuller table with fewer hands per hour, my guess is they'd rather err on the side of giving him less theo than more.
     
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