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Maybe you boys should move up a set of tees

Discussion in 'Non-Vegas Chat' started by ken2v, Aug 4, 2014.

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  1. ken2v

    ken2v This Space For Rent

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    Typical man-at-course experience yesterday.

    I was a solo, paired with another singleton and a father/daughter team. I'm walking over to the first tee, and they are parked beside the blue tees. "Standard," I'm thinking. Usual pleasantries ensue. They hit. One guy goes yard, re-tees, yard, re-tees; other guy splits the fairway. I look at whites, maybe 10 yards on this hole, so just peg it where I am. I'm about even with Long-Wrong's third (fifth), other guy is 30 yards behind us. First guy hits a freakin' cruise missile that doesn't touch anything green until disappearing in the reeds behind the green, drops a BB and this one has enough altitude to die in the rough 15 yards behind. Long-Wrong -- we're 135 out -- shoozles a hosel-rocket somewhere to oblivion. I hit 9i maybe 25 feet right of the hole. After various and sundry chips and rehits and putts and what not, they invent some numbers. I actually don't three-putt.

    We get to two, they offer me the tee but I tell them to go ahead because I'm playing whites, as I often do. They look at me funny. Now I'm no golf-god, as you know from my tales here. But what happened on #1 pretty much plays out all day. Mr. Breakfast Ball, who spends a good part of the day telling me about his growing up at at NE club and once being a par-shooter, says he's "about a 10 now" and what not, see his first "4" on the par-3 8th and his first par on the par-4 9th. The other guy drops a few putts, scatters a dozen on the opening nine, but he's smiling and jovial and we are having fun chatting here and there.

    Now never once does either deign to play off the lowly whites.

    I'm not a huge hitter. But I hit it farther than the majority of recreational male players. My driver swing speed is a few ticks north of 100 mph, and a solid drive for me is 260 (which also plays out time after time in testing and in the yardage calculations all ball manufacturers have for x swing at y efficiency, so the 10 guys everyone knows who "routinely hit it, oh, a good 290," are all but a few full of shit -- ain't gonna happen with the laws of physics in this dimension and universe). I'm two clubs longer than Mr. About-a-10-Now at the short end of the bag, probably three toward the top. Not bragging, just providing comparisons. I play to my 'cap because a whole bunch of pars are offset by that damnable subset of "others." But I don't lose a ball, I don't hit in a hazard or go OB, I do take two drops with penalty from unplayable lies. I three-jack twice. (Apparently that is me not the putter.)

    Not much changes on the back.

    Yet I'm the one on the whites?
     
  2. Malibugolfer

    Malibugolfer High-Roller

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    Ken, oh where do I start. My, like many others I'm sure, absolute pet peeve. Playing from the wrong tees also contributes to the bain of golf growth, which is slow play.
    I like how newer courses, especially resorts, use different colors of tee markers to try and avoid the blue-white-red syndrome.
    My problem is I virtually always play with people who are much, much better than me and myself alone on another set of tees would slow down the game. At least in their eyes. And, since I get strokes, they prefer me not hitting greens whenever possible. Also, all our club tournaments are from the blues so I play my weekly rounds there also.
    I can see how many guys, all of whom are younger than I am and much longer off the tee, would disdain playing up. Testosterone if you will. But the guys you just mentioned need to do what I did when I learned how to play. Play executive courses that are all 3 pars with just occasional 2 shotters mixed in.
    When I go on vacation I almost always play whites or their equivilent. Makes for more fun, which is the idea after all.
    Oddly I score about the same up or back, probably because I have a good short game. But putting for birdies is more fun than trying to stick a pitch shot tight to save par.
    Malibu CC used to make you prove a single digit HC to play the blues. That is a great idea. And scratch for some places blacks.
     
  3. parallax

    parallax Low-Roller

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    Back in my college baseball days and before I had shoulder issues, I could hit north of 300 yards. Now I'm lucky to hit 250 and there is no way I would hit from the tips. I didn't like hitting from the tips back then because my all around game was mediocre. I have actually become a better golfer when I lost my distance. What you experienced drives me crazy.
     
  4. bardolator

    bardolator Lifelong Low Roller

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    High and wide on a one-timer from the blue line, strike out swinging for the fences, miss a three instead of passing, hit a bad shot from the wrong tees, play hard four instead of taking odds, bust drawing to an inside straight- they're all the same thing. Where's the "glory" in hitting a bad shot from the white tees?

    BTW, I was almost on TV Thursday- our boat was about 100 yards out of that shot of the speeding PWC on East Reservoir.
     
  5. Joe

    Joe VIP Whale

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    With my back issues, I probably should play from the "reds", but here they are called the ladies tees, so I do white.
     
    Christmas
  6. ken2v

    ken2v This Space For Rent

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    And then shouldn't you still use forgings with a heavy Dynamic Gold shaft, and a balata, Joe? That's "real" golf. lol

    See malibu's post above. Don't get caught up in color. Play to a yardage. I can "play" a 6800-, 7000-yard course, but I don't want to. So if those are white-teed and the next one up is red, so be it. 6500 is fine, 6300 is probably my wheelhouse, I play at 6,000 often. As the man said, newer courses are nuking the color scheme and any gender reference. We're also seeing more composite ratings, an easy way for a course not to build and maintain superfluous flat green patches and offer more and better options than the dated, 1950s blue/white/red layout, with the assumptions associated with each.
     
  7. makikiboy

    makikiboy VIP Whale

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    Many courses (especially our public courses in Hawaii) just have 2 sets of tees, white and red so there is really no "play it up". But as others have mentioned, it is the testosterone factor also. Many of these people (men mostly) once or twice hit the monster drives and so feel they should be playing the blue tees, never mind that most of the time they don't end up near the fairway. They also wait for the green to clear when they have 250 yards left, thinking that a good fairway shot will hit the green (most times they aren't even close). They look at Ken as a "wuss" and laugh at Ken because he's playing from the white tees, not realizing that Ken is probably shooting a whole stroke a hole better. They use the excuse that they play from the blue tees so that's why they don't shoot as well as people from the white tees, not realizing that the blue tees are only 20 to 50 yards longer so shouldn't be too much difference, especially a stroke a hole difference.

    I switched to senior shafts at the beginning of this year. For years the senior shafts were too whippy for me but lately (since I hit 56 last year) while I am on the borderline (close to 90 mph swing) and could play regular shafts I've been more consistent and accurate with the senior shafts. It forces me to slow my tempo down and not "hack" at the ball. Yes, I am probably 40 yards shorter but at least I am in the fairway a lot of the time, unlike when I was using stiff or regular shafts.
     
  8. dooner

    dooner High-Roller

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    Pet peeve - oh yeah! My most frustrating part of watching the first tee 'participants'. I used to work in the pro shop, and sometimes as a marshall (we had no 'starter' back then at my home course). I was very vocal on the first tee about tee selection (I could figure out most people's handicap simply by their practice swing/set up).

    That's where the trouble began - I suggested tee selection for the group (adding handicap recommendations, as listed on the scorecard). This is where the most evil stares ensued. I was yelled at after their dubbed tee shot, since I was responsible for their flub. Most of the time, the group went back to the 'tips' after the first hole anyway.

    What fun is it shooting 100 from the tips, where, at best, every approach shot was with a wood/long iron. Normally chipping back to the fairway was what I witnessed.

    Then..... as a marshall ..... trying to speed them up ..... don't get me started. The mere suggestion of informing them that they are behind, since they are playing too slow, starting on the back tees..... it was a nightmare.


    I am a 3 handicap, with a 105-110 mph swing speed. I don't hit it a mile, but I hit the short stuff almost all the time. I normally play the same tees as my father (75 year old), which are our 'white' tees on the course. It is about 6100 yards (par 71), which is plenty for him. I love the variety of tee shots required, with only 2 drivers to hit on the back nine. Makes me a better player. Now, when I go the tips, I actually shoot better (in fact, when my father was ill for months, I played exclusively from the tips, and my handicap was reduced 3 points, since the rating/slope was much more difficult. Hitting a nine iron, or a 6 iron as an approach makes no difference for my score - I can't put either close enough to birdie, so same pars.

    Okay, rant over.......... please dump testosterone at first tee.
     
  9. mrem3200

    mrem3200 High-Roller

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    Golf is a hard enough game as it is, I never understood why some people want to make it harder. I stink, at one point many years ago I was a 12, now it is closer to 20. I don't play enough anymore to have an official handicap. On more than one occasion I have been the only one in the foursome playing from the whites when everyone else was playing the blues. I have no problem with it.
     
  10. ken2v

    ken2v This Space For Rent

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    I play a lot of golf with people I don't know, nearly as many rounds as with friends and family. So I see a lot of the golf world up close and personal.

    At any given course -- and this is not scientific but a good assumption -- I bet I'd beat more blue-tee-playing players than ones to whom I'd lose. And if played at match not medal, no question whatsoever. That's not a brag. White's? Probably not nearly as many.

    I walked yesterday. Mr. New England Club Prodigy rode solo in a cart. Except for a few tops, he never was in position for the next shot before me and in fact I often hit "out of turn." And because the course was well designed , about 90% of the time I was on the next tee ready to go before the riders. We had this discussion a while back, but as alluded to above, another of the idiotic mindsets holding this game back is that we all have to be in a buggy, not just on the same set of tees.

    Doon is correct, beyond some very strident suggestions, like so many of the elements slowing down play there is little enforcement authority in the game as played on public courses. And while operators would make MORE money enforcing slow play, they choose not to because of the typical short-sighted management mentality that you can't afford to piss anyone off. That's bull shit. Go play most any American Golf Corporation course and "enjoy" the fruits of a total disregard for pace and spacing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  11. merlin

    merlin VIP Whale

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    Nothing wrong with playing the whites, but no way in hell should a real man tee off from the "ladies" tee's, I dont care if he cant hit it 100 yds, unless if he's gonna put on a sundress and a bonnet he plays from the mens tee's.
     
  12. ken2v

    ken2v This Space For Rent

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    Ahh, merlin weighs in on real manhood. lol
     
  13. Packer

    Packer VIP Whale

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    I hate waiting due to players in front of me taking a 8 or a 12 on every hole! I can get around in 3 hours without someone in front of us. Realistically a round of golf should take 4 to 4 1/2 hours max. I really don't see players teeing off from the championship or back tees anymore. They mostly no better. Why don't players pick up after their 8th shot on a par 4? Why do they mark their ball when they have a 2 footer for quad bogie? Tee it up folks! Play fast and have fun!

    Quick story... For me, I play from the back (Blue) but not championship (Black) tees. I can play from the blacks but it makes it sooo tough and hate hitting into every par four with a 3 wood. Played the Wynn last month on a Saturday and Sunday. Saturday we tee it up from the middle tees (Whites) at about 6400 yards. I was hitting almost every 2nd shot on par fours with a 8 or 9 iron. On #1 pitching wedge. 60 degree on number 5. Ended up shooting a 84. Stroked the ball well so didn't complain. Played pretty good for me. The next day after reviewing the round the day before with my 2 golfing buddies(one a 2, another a 10 and im a 9) we needed to move back to the back (Blue) tees 6800 yards or so. We felt due to the desert weather the ball carries longer and rolls really far on the fairways. We moved back and used all the clubs in my bag. It was much better of a challenge with a lot of concentration and course mgmt going on. Had a triple on #2 and a bogie on #6 for a 38 on the front. Back side birdies on 15 and 16 for a 34!!! Best round of my life! 72! Felt like a pro for a couple hours! 12 strokes better than the day before! For us it was a good move to move back. Since then have shot in the very high 70s (14 rounds) with only 3 rounds in the low 80s! For me right now I LOVE THIS GAME!
     
  14. ken2v

    ken2v This Space For Rent

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    It was packed out there yesterday but owing to control off the first tee, the course could survive the inevitable holes where a few folks go yard a few times, it stacks up, then clears. We cleared in 4:20. Slower than we play at home but very commendable for a ... city-owned course. Yep, a muni.

    Good playing and good experiences, Packer. I think you realize you are in that few percentage points near the top of the performance curve and from what you've said about your ability certainly suggests 6,800 is a good place for you. I still hate back/blue, tips/black, whatever tags. The key was not the color, the key was the yardage and how the yardage brought the design elements into play for you.

    Tees needs to be pegged to yardage, not gender or index. A good player who has lost 30 percent of length while keeping the cagey short game needs to make a 30 percent adjustment. As you say, when you found a routing that brought options and more clubs into play, you played better and enjoyed it more. Hitting only wedges or long clubs into greens ain't the intent.

    As for those 8s and 12s ... even if a player doesn't have an index, invoke equitable stroke control. Guesstimate, adjust, find your max, be done.
     
  15. danielao

    danielao Low-Roller

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    And this is why there should never be tees marked men's and ladies. I can't believe many courses label them that way anymore.

    The shortest course isn't for ladies, it's for people with high handicaps or beginners.
     
  16. Slotchick

    Slotchick High-Roller

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    I have to agree that the tees should be marked by yardage and not gender; I like playing from the whites a couple times a week for the challenge. There are plenty of times we get stuck behind young guys that are teeing off the blues and barely making it to the red tees; there is absolutely nothing more frustrating. Worst part is those are the guys that don't let you play through if they are holding you up!

    I have to add: When my DH was teaching me to golf he told me there is nothing more frustrating than a slow player. Sticks in my mind everytime I see slow play, he said to me: "if you can't be good, be fast".
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  17. merlin

    merlin VIP Whale

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    It's tongue in cheek but also true, if you're not 80+ hit off the whites and take your 7 or 8, but play quick, if you can only hit it 150 yds, dont wait until they're 300 yds away. Now I'm mainly talking par 4's and 5's, cause on a 200 yd par 3 does it really matter if you move up to the 145 yd tee - your not hitting it on the green anyway.
     
  18. ken2v

    ken2v This Space For Rent

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    So is it tongue-in-cheek or a truism?

    You're really hung up with the color of tee markers, or it the supposed girlie thing? Even with a typical red-tee configuration of 5600-5800 yards, that 150-yard drive is going to lead to the need for two additional 150-yard shots on several par 5s and 200-yard approaches on multiple par 4s. That's silly. As it is, most courses' forward tees are way too far back for a huge swath of players.

    Forward tees need to be in the 4800-5200 range.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  19. Malibugolfer

    Malibugolfer High-Roller

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    Ken mentioned intermediate tees. These are a great idea, combining the best of both worlds. Wood Ranch CC had them way back and I commonly play them at The Plantation in the desert.
    They also offer variety if one plays a course alot.
    And I laugh at "Ladies tees" nomenclature. The women at my club mostly walk, play very, very, fast and seem to enjoy their rounds more than most men. And I commonly play with a 25 year old "lady" who shoots mid-low 70's from the blue-back-mens tees. She calls me her "automatic ATM."
    Packer, you are atypical by a lot. You actually have the game to play, and appreciate, the design features of a course which more often than not a re best encountered from farther back. Just as long as the hazards, dog legs etc. are reachable of course. Which with you they are.
    Since I play (too far) back due to my competition I often am short of many hazards and only the greenside bunkers are in play. Forced carries get a bit testy though.
     
  20. makikiboy

    makikiboy VIP Whale

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    My friend's father is 89 years old and still plays. He rides a cart and plays from the red tees. They have a handicapped friend who also plays from the red tees. I never laugh at them or anyone else that plays from the red tees, it's their money and if it speeds up play, so much the better. I don't base the red tees on gender, if someone is starting out or doesn't know how to play (I might suggest he/she try out the par 3 courses or the driving range or taking lessons) then playing from the red tees are more bearable than watching them hack from the white tees.

    I have seen others who struggle but still play from the blue tees but as long as they keep up with the pace of play then I don't care either. Most of the time the blue tee hackers don't keep up with the group in front of them, that's when I usually catch up to them and ask if I can play through. Sometimes they give the evil eye but I hate having to follow a slow group that is falling behind a few HOLES. If they don't let me play through I sometimes just bypass that hole. One thing I learned when taking golf lessons, keep up with the group in front of you! You may be hacking all over the place but as long as you keep up with the group in front of you then the others behind you can't grumble about you playing slow.

    Actually I wish that I can still golf at 89 years old.
     
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