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Looking into comps, used to get RFB

Discussion in 'Comps' started by Mark Davis, May 11, 2013.

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  1. Mark Davis

    Mark Davis Tourist

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    I used to go to Vegas a good bit more in the early 2000's. I was single then and usually played double deck BJ at the NYNY. $25 minimum, bet up to $100, occasionally $500. Typically would stay 3-4 nights with about a $5,000 bankroll. Had a buddy who would go out there with me, about half the bankroll, stuck to more the $25 limit.

    I've gone a couple times recently for conferences. It seems that type of play isn't really comped much now. It's more a business expense for the room but since I own the business it would be nice to get some comps. My upcoming trip I have some MyVegas nights at Aria to cover the rooms but curious what type BJ play I'd need at say the Venetian to get a good dinner for two comped to Grand Lux for instance?

    Also, for future trips to get RFB now what type BJ play and bankroll is standard?
     
  2. JRAinDC

    JRAinDC Tourist

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    About $150/hand at 4 hours per day if you play someplace like Treasure Island.

    Be careful with the double deck games. Fine one where the deal doesn't hit on soft 17 and where you can split after doubling.
     
  3. RiddickBull

    RiddickBull VIP Whale

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    Grazie does not have the best table game comps. Say your dinner costs $300 total for 2 people. With a HA of 0.5% in BJ, your would need to wager about $20k, assuming they give you 30% of your theoretical.

    At $100 per hand, you would have to bet 200 hands.

    For full RFB, it depends on how much you eat and drink, and where you stay.
     
  4. given2gamble

    given2gamble Low-Roller

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    Your math is fuzzy. $20,000 X .5% = $100. 30% of that is $33. Need to wager a lot more to get to $300 in comps assuming they use .5% for the HA on BJ in their system.
     
  5. 3544quebec

    3544quebec Low-Roller

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    More fuzzy math. Too much :beer: perhaps
     
  6. johnnyd75

    johnnyd75 Tourist

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    Club Grazie BJ Comp Feedback

    Based on my last stay at Palazzo, I'd say the comp ratio for Club Grazie is close to 30% of Theo with a HA of about 2% on the DD/H17 game I played for long stretches. If you look at the Nevada Gaming Control Board numbers, the house win for BJ on the strip is around 11%. Even though the HA for most BJ games on the strip is around 0.5%: 1) Not everyone plays perfect strategy and 2) Most importantly, not everyone has the bankroll to absorb a long losing stretch. Thus, the actual win percentage will always be higher than the HA they use to calculate comps. If the HA used for BJ rating is indeed lower, then the comp ratio must be higher to account for what I was comped. I'd also add that MLife has about the same BJ theo/HA factors as Club Grazie. I've never had any great BJ sessions at Wynn or CET, so I can't comment on those players club comps.
     
  7. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    yes, most people don't play perfect BS and yes most people don't have the bankroll to absorb a long losing stretch, but that has little to do with why the house win % is so much higher than the HA on the game. there was another thread about this recently. the house win is calculated from how much money people buy in with, whereas the HA affects each bet. if you buy in with $1000, and you sit there betting $50/hand for a while, let's say you play 200 hands. you have bet $10k and if the HA is 2% you theoretically lost $200. but for the casino house win % they calculate that based on your $1000 buy-in and their $200 win is 20%. then you figure that most people play until they lose their entire buy-in each session and you can see how a casino can get a very high win % regardless of the HA.
     
  8. johnnyd75

    johnnyd75 Tourist

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    @Shifter My point was: Using the true HA to calculate comps that are given out would imply that the comp ratio is higher than the 30-40% we've accepted to be true.

    The theoretical HA is what informed gamblers use to determine which games to play. The actual house win is the real world number that drive casino decisions. If you listen to the conference calls or read the earnings reports of Wynn, LVS, MGM, or CET, they never reference the HA (full disclosure: I own shares in some casino stocks). The performance in the casino is measured in win percentages (i.e. house win). LVS' last quarter they reported 27.6% table game win in Las Vegas. That was higher than their historical average which is 20-22% and clearly above the recognized HA of all table games apart from Keno. Your buy-in is simply the revenue they take in, but the house win is the remaining money at the end of the quarter that the casino has truly won from all players. Think of it as revenue versus gross margin. The house win is the gross margin, which is a better indicator of the underlying casino performance than house advantage.

    Say you play $200 a hand in order to receive RFB, which the hosts at Club Grazie have told me is the number they look at. At $200 per hand x 60 hands/hr x 4 hrs/day x 0.5% HA = $240 Theo. I don't think V/P are going to offer me RFB for what equates to $72-$96 in comps a day (assuming 30-40% comp back ratio). If we switch out the 0.5% HA with 2% HA, that number quadruples and looks closer to what an RFB player is entitled to in comps ($288-$384).
     
  9. dankyone

    dankyone VIP Whale

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    Typical win percentages are 20-22% of the DROP (all money bought in for at table games). While each trial/hand carries a house advantage of 0.5% or so on BJ, players typically play hundreds of hands and wind up putting some large multiple of their initial buy in into action.

    In terms of theo calculations--it is my sense that most properties underestimate the number of hands played but also believe most players are not perfect basic strategists and are fading a house edge of 1%+.

    They use 60 hands/hour where in a high limit game 100 hands an hour is more realistic, probably closer to 150 hands/hour heads up against the dealer. They think they have a 1%+ advantage, and against most players they do, but the standard HL game at Mlife properties can be played at -0.26%.

    And yes, $200/hand at BJ sounds like a low number for RFB at V/P. Sounds like a very good deal for the player, actually.
     
  10. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    This is still wrong and it sounds like you are still mixing up house win with house advantage. Gross gaming revenue is not the amount of total buy-in (which is frankly a meaningless number to report as a line item on any financial statement), it is equal to gross win. Table game win/hold/take is simply calculated as the difference between buy-in (drop) and the chips the player walks away with. You can't look at table game win percentages and derive any useful information about the HA because the other variable is total amount wagered which is a function of average bet and number of hands. There are also some other things that technically effect the table win % but they're not gaming related (e.g. churning cash).

    You're right though that the casino uses a higher HA to calculate your theo than the optimal HA. However your decisions/hour are very low. 60 hands/hr is only realistic for a completely full table, you're really looking at 100+ hands for most tables especially at the black chip and higher level where the tables are less crowded. When some posters from this board have posted their actual theo, hours played, and average bet numbers they've received from their host we've backed out the actual HA used, assuming 100 hands/hr, and I believe they've ranged from 0.40% to 0.65% for the better BJ games.

    Also note that its been published in Stanford Wong's CBJN and verified by members on this board that at least some of the big casinos DO account for your skill level in theo calculations. So the HA they use for you may be completely different than the one they use for the next guy.

    And I'm sure someone here knows the RFB number for Venetian but I can't believe it would be $200 BJ at 4 hours per day. I'd be surprised if that even gets you RFB at a mid-tier casino.
     
  11. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    yep, just had that confirmed by my host. they have different settings they put you on based on your skill level.
     
  12. dankyone

    dankyone VIP Whale

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    That actually explains a lot, for example why my comp rate seems so much better at Caesars than at MGM props, contrary to other people's experiences. Maybe MGM has me down as a more skilled player and Caesars doesn't.
     
  13. johnnyd75

    johnnyd75 Tourist

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    Thanks for the info KickinChicken. Based on my play last month and talking with the host on duty at the end of my stay, the RFB number is not that far from $200 per hand. Maybe he was looking at the total hours I played and factored that in, since I played more than 4 hrs per day.
     
  14. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    in a regular room, $200 avg bet for 4 hours sounds more than reasonable at the top properties such as V/P/B/Aria/Wynn
     
  15. dankyone

    dankyone VIP Whale

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    For a room comp, not RFB. In my experience they (Aria/Bellagio/Wynn) will not pick up much food at that level. CP will comp significant food. No idea about V/P.
     
  16. fas87

    fas87 Tourist

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    dankyone - would you mind expanding on your experiences with CP comps vs. Bellagio/Aria/Wynn?

    My average bet at Bellagio last trip was $200 (BJ), ~4 hours per day, and I got very little food comped on top of the upfront room offer. I was in New Orleans recently and had an hour to kill and played at a Harrah's property for the first time in years. Since then, I see COMP in Total Rewards for anywhere in Vegas and have been thinking about maybe moving to CP for my next Vegas trip; however, I'm hesitant because of the prevailing wisdom that Caesars properties don't comp table players as well as MLife.
     
  17. mike_m235

    mike_m235 Tourist

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    I think the prevailing wisdom is for green chip table, not black
     
  18. dankyone

    dankyone VIP Whale

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    Sure. Everyone on this board says MGM comps table players better, but my experience is the opposite. POSSIBLY I am rated as a more skilled player by MGM and have a higher bar there.

    Assuming 4 hours of play a day:

    $100/hand, good for room comp in a good room at CP, casino rate in a standard room at B/Aria

    at $150/hand you will have a little misc food taken care of by CP on top of the room. Aria/Bellagio room comp only, and begrudgingly at that.

    at $200/hand you will have substantial food picked up at Caesars, maybe $500-600 in a 3 day trip. At Bellagio you have some ammo now to grovel with, but don't expect much. Maybe "we'll take care of those $25 pool cocktails that cost us $1.50 to serve you, but you're on your own for that dinner at Le Cirque"

    at $250/hand you will have a lot of room at both places, but Caesars everything within reason (no Guy Savoy, no bottles at Pure) will be picked up, easily over $1000 in a 3 day trip. At B/Aria it will be more like $150/day.

    Above these levels you are getting into RFB and suites, others will have better data points for you. Aria seems quickest to push you into suites whereas at Bellagio and CP upfront suite comps require very high play.

    Other factors--Caesars seems to take better care of you if you have a big loss. MGM seems to look more at average bet rather than strictly adhering to the 4 hours a day. Caesars seems to care more about the time at table and if it is less than 4 hours a day things get tighter.

    The atmosphere and BJ rules in general are much better at Aria/B overall. However, the Palace Court (HL) casino at CP has the same rules as Aria/B but often only one $100 table is available, others $200, $500, or reserved. Bellagio will still serve you Silver Oak while playing HL blackjack, which can change the whole equation. The wine served at Caesars is terrible and only passable at Aria. The diamond lounge at CP is a nice amenity and nothing comparable exists in the MGM world.

    I have won a lot at Bellagio the past couple of years and they are extremely tight, now generally offering me room comp only, no food, no limo, basically F U. This does make me wonder if they have decided they do not like my action.

    FOR THE SAME PLAY, Aria generally offers standard room +$150/day in food and bev, sometimes a corner suite. CP offers $1000 in free play, which is like $1000 cash to walk through the door. No upfront food but they generally pick up everything I dare charge to the room. When I stay at Aria I assume no food will be picked up beyond the initial offer.
     
  19. fas87

    fas87 Tourist

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    Thank you for such a thoughtful response! Although it sounds like I play at a much lower level than you, my experiences at Bellagio are consistent with yours. Thank you again for sharing your perspective.
     
  20. CJ's

    CJ's Low-Roller

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    Room comps

    Here's another question, sorry I'm a newbie so if this has been covered elsewhere I haven't seen it yet.

    Planning my return visit for Aug this year.
    If I book my room direct with Aria and pay the first night deposit rather than going through Expedia or Lastminute and paying all up front, depending on my level of play I spent approx. $6k last year, what's the possibility of getting my room comp'd in full/part rather that paying for it in hard cash?
    Also I have over $200 in express comps left on my account from last year, can I use these to offset my room costs?
    When I first stayed at NYNY in 2009 upon checkout I was told, based on my play, they would have comp'd me the room in full but I had booked through Lastminute and paid in full up front already. Wish I had known before hand.:eek:

    Have booked all my stays this way so far and I'm trying to learn from my mistakes.:eek:
     
    The way I like to start a new year
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