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Table Games Long live craps? I hope?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by DoubleUp, Oct 5, 2014.

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  1. DoubleUp

    DoubleUp Low-Roller

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    I just bought a copy of CBJN (Current blackjack news) which lists what games are where in vegas, and was shocked by the increased prevalence of 6:5 blackjack since I lived there a year ago and regularly tracked such things.

    I am going to a trade show, and staying at NYNY, and at that casino there are almost no real blackjack games left. :cry: I know there are still some real games around, but boy they sure are continuing to put the squeeze on! Not only are they offering more games of 6:5, they are even squeezing those games! Going to 6 decks and H17! Damn you ploppies stop playing those games! They ought to just put a bucket that says "drop your money here, we will kick you in the *** later, thanks for stoping by!"

    So glad the casinos haven't yet figured out how to foul up craps.... Still a great game :thumbsup: :)
     
  2. Hobofrank

    Hobofrank Prime Minister of Idiocracy

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    they know ploppies are confused about and intimidated by dice layouts, but that dice players are degens and face it if Big 6/8 aren't bad enough odds and prop bets aren't enough advantage already, why would they change it?:wink2:
     
  3. TIMSPEED

    TIMSPEED !địt mẹ!

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    Exactly!
    NO ONE (or HARDLY anyone) just plays Pass + Max Odds
    That, and craps is a FACED paced game that can accommodate MANY players at the same time. (The hourly drop on a full table is HUGE compared to BJ)
     
    Palace Tower Suite!
  4. flyguyfl

    flyguyfl Low-Roller

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    I agree with Frank. If you don't only play pass/don't pass with full odds and a couple of come bets with odds you are donating not gambling! Just have the BR to weather a few bad rolls and you will likely get ahead so you can quit a winner.
     
  5. dutchvelvet

    dutchvelvet VIP Whale

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    Hopefully 2x odds doesn't become a thing. Already exists in bubble craps.
     
  6. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    You're gambling/donating either way. You may be donating/gambling less if you're playing just PL/Odds, but you're facing a negative expectation game either way.

    I get a kick out of the crowd that thinks that playing a lower negative EV game is somehow not "gambling" or that anyone playing another game is a "sucker" who doesn't know math. The reality is that everyone in the casino (outside of a few spots that still have FP VP, or those who can actually count cards at BJ) is facing a losing proposition in the long run. IMO the guy who is playing slots with a 10% hold, playing the hardways/fire bet/ATAS at craps, roulette, etc., knowing that he's facing a huge house edge, but is willing to play anyways because the entertainment value is high for him, is a hell of a lot smarter than the guy who's playing only PL & odds on craps, Baccarat, or VP while thumbing his nose at others as "suckers". Both players are facing a negative EV game (albeit one having a higher negative EV than the other), but one has somehow convinced himself that he's not "gambling" or is somehow going to come out ahead in the long run.

    There are plenty of people who are clueless and will plop down at a 6:5 table with crappy rules while literally right next to it is an empty 3:2 table with better rules at the same limit. However, as long as you know what your bet is "costing" you, who cares if you're playing a hard way or a slot machine? The fool is the one who thinks that he's going to win in the long run whether he's playing a .5% HA game or a 5% HA game.
     
  7. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    Outside of the Cal (trying to recoup those losses from the legendary roll) I don't know any real tables that have this in Vegas. That's about the only way to bastardize craps besides the center/field bets. Most of the tables in Vegas that I've seen already only pay double on the 2 & 12 field bets.
     
  8. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    The number of players on a craps table definitely helps. Also like you said most people play at least a place bet or two if not center bets. Many don't play full odds. In addition I'd be willing to bet that the risk of ruin for the average player's buy-in in craps is quite high. Due to the large amount of money required to weather the variance to stick around on a craps table, most people are severely under-rolled in my experience. I'd say probably 80% of the buy-ins on a $10 table are $200 or less. If you're playing PL & max odds, it only takes about 3-4 bad rolls to completely wipe out your $200 (and of course if you're not playing max odds, the HA goes up). The same buy in on a BJ table has a much lower risk of ruin, and even in those cases where the player is felted, it would likely take quite a while before the player was wiped out, while craps could literally happen in 5 minutes or less.

    It's partially offset by the 4 person crew needed to run a table, but I still think it's fairly profitable for the casino.
     
  9. DoubleUp

    DoubleUp Low-Roller

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    This is a great point that I sometimes forget. In one way of thinking, playing craps with some hardways and "sucker bets" thrown in can be a better value (depending on the person, mood etc) then playing only passline / odds, if you think in terms of "Fun for Dollar". As long as you know what you are paying and think it is worth it, you are playing "smart".
     
  10. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    Yes, as long as you are informed of what the bet is "costing" you, then who cares. If playing VP is as exciting as watching paint dry for someone, what's a better value for them? VP with .5% HA, or Roulette (if they find that very entertaining) at 5%? They're both losing propositions in the long run, so if you aren't having fun or being entertained, but losing less, then who's the sucker?

    Now like I said, the guy sitting at a crappy table with one open with the same limits literally next to it, is probably not very informed. Sort of like the guy who is playing on a $5 craps table, betting $25 on the PL, with no odds (not quite the same as they win more on a come out winner but I'd wager most of these bettors probably don't really know that a $5 PL with $20 in odds is a much better bet and wins on the same outcome as their $25 PL).

    Also the most fun I've every had in a casino are the times where I've been on a fire bet with the 6th point set, only needing one more number for the ATAS, or when my pressed hardway starts hitting for $1-5K. It's like the excitement of a slot jackpot drawn out over 20+minutes.
     
  11. sindustry

    sindustry VIP Whale

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    This is well said! I am a carnival pit junkie! Love some UTH and Crazy 4! I am too ADD for grinding it out at the tables...I need action! I do play Craps, BJ, and Bac...just not as often as UTH. Although there is a decent amount of strategy to consider in UTH, I fully understand the HA is much higher than the traditional "Professional" games. For me, the fun factor versus "sucker-bet" factor in UTH is a good match. I have only been a winner on two trips out of 8 or 9 this year, and I am ok with that because I have had a blast on all of those trips.
     
  12. PayTriple

    PayTriple The Cucumber King

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    Bane of my existence......
     
  13. Hobofrank

    Hobofrank Prime Minister of Idiocracy

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    Meh, I was getting triple on 12 at PH and Cosmo last trip
     
  14. PayTriple

    PayTriple The Cucumber King

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    Are you sure about the Cosmo?
    I know the Aria pays Triple but the Cosmo only double in August, 2014.
    Have they changed back to paying triple?
    That would be great news!
     
  15. thestugot

    thestugot Low-Roller

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    I've pretty much abandoned BJ for craps over the last few years. BJ is a grind for me. Winning sessions at 3:2 6-8 decks were far too few. I sat at a 6:5 with machine constant shuffle to play with some friends and won $400 in 15 minutes betting quarters. IDK if I care about 6:5 or how many decks are in the shoe or if the decks are constantly shuffled. I want to have some fun. And if I win... that's excellent. Learn how to play craps. Craps is more fun and a better game overall IMHO. I hate getting beat by a dealer over and over again. I have a 20 - dealer pulls to 21. I have 19 - dealer pulls to 20. I have 18 - dealer pulls to 19. And so on... Grinding... Not fun...
     
  16. dutchvelvet

    dutchvelvet VIP Whale

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    You were definitely getting triple at Aria (though not enough of them)
     
  17. Snidely

    Snidely VIP Whale

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    Ain't that the worst! I play some BJ but it's a grind for a long period of time and you're just playing according to some memorized rules. It lacks the randomness of craps.
     
  18. Hobofrank

    Hobofrank Prime Minister of Idiocracy

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    I'm 100% on PH, can't swear on a bible about Cosmo, but I did get paid on 2 and 12 with field bets at both many times that night
     
  19. LV_Bound

    LV_Bound VIP Whale

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    I have seen some of the older felts paying back more than what they currently do.
    So in a way they are slowly making subtle changes.
    The only thing I can image them doing is increasing the table min or take off another dollar on the props paybacks.
     
  20. DoubleUp

    DoubleUp Low-Roller

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    I just saw some advertising that New York New York is (or at least was) promoting $5 blackjack 24x7, which explains the huge number of 6/5 tables at that one M-life property. (Others also have many, but not that many!). There is no way a strip property can offer $5 blackjack without upping the house edge significantly.
     
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