1. Welcome to VegasMessageBoard
    It appears you are visiting our community as a guest.
    In order to view full-size images, participate in discussions, vote in polls, etc, you will need to Log in or Register.

Judge orders gamblers to return winnings

Discussion in 'Non-Vegas Chat' started by Landshark, Feb 13, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Landshark

    Landshark Way into it...

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Messages:
    343
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    3
    Thoughts?
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    A New Jersey judge ordered the return of $1.5 million to a casino from gamblers who won at a table game after realizing the cards had not been shuffled.

    State Superior Court Judge Donna Taylor ruled in favor of the Golden Nugget casino in its dispute with 14 gamblers who say it was not there fault the cards were not shuffled and should be allowed to keep their winnings.

    A mini-baccarat game is where the trouble started in April 2012. The casino was using decks of cards that paid a manufacturer to pre-shuffle, but the deck at hand was not shuffled. Once the gamblers realized the cards were not shuffled, they increased their bets from $10 to $5,000 and proceeded to win 41 straight hands.

    Judge Taylor said the games were illegal under state law because they did not conform to the state's gambling regulations.

    "The dealer did not pre-shuffle the cards immediately prior to the commencement of play, and the cards were not pre-shuffled in accordance with any regulation," the judge wrote. "Thus, a literal reading of the regulations ... entails that the game violated the (Casino Control) Act, and consequently was not authorized."

    The Golden Nugget casino bought what were supposed to be pre-shuffled cards from a Kansas City Manufacturer. The manufacturer did acknowledge it failed to shuffle the cards. The litigation between the manufacturer and the casino was resolved, but a confidentiality agreement prevents details from being revealed.

    http://www.myfoxny.com/story/28101741/judge-orders-gamblers-to-return-winnings-to-new-jersey-casino
     
  2. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2010
    Messages:
    10,096
    Location:
    At the tables
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    30
    Ridiculous ruling by a judge who knows nothing.
     
  3. bjpcyclone

    bjpcyclone High-Roller

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2013
    Messages:
    871
    Location:
    NE Oklahoma
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    15
    If courts are going to rule against players in cases like this, I'm all for everyone suing casinos to get their losses back when they are blackout drunk and the casino continues to allow them to play.
     
  4. SH0CK

    SH0CK Stylin' and Profilin' Quasi Tech Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    12,928
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    37
    Anyone want to find an attorney in NJ after losing your ass at one of their tables games after a dealer didn't shuffle the deck? According to this judges ruling, the casino would have to give all of your money back. :rolleyes2:
     
  5. LandryBalla9

    LandryBalla9 High-Roller

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2013
    Messages:
    613
    Location:
    DC
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    7
    Asinine, this should have been legally on the casino, not the gamblers.
     
  6. mrstealth

    mrstealth High-Roller

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2009
    Messages:
    890
    Location:
    Midwest - Sister Bay, WI
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    62
    Once again it proves the age old saying "The Casino Always WIns". Especially in New Jersey or Nevada where all of the laws are definitely pro-casino.

    Reminds me a little of the phil ivey case.
     
  7. Piggylane

    Piggylane Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    680
    Location:
    Quabbin Reservoir, MA
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    159
    Sounds like somebody ignorant got themselves appointed/elected Judge. Not unusual for New Jersey. I haven't gambled in AC in over 10 years and have no plans on ever returning to do so again.

    Unfortunately I have a four day meeting In Newark in a couple weeks. Not looking forward to it at all and plan on spending as little time and money in the State as possible.
     
  8. C0usineddie

    C0usineddie VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,516
    Location:
    San Diego
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    12
    So judges cant rule on the merits of the case, they can only rule in favor of the gamblers?
     
  9. bribhoy

    bribhoy Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2015
    Messages:
    171
    Location:
    London, UK
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    4
    I disagreed with the judge who found against Ivey in London over his baccarat winnings based on the fact that the casino's cards had been badly cut so he could tell which cards were coming. I disagree with this ruling as well. Casinos (should) have controls and procedures in place to prevent these types of events. If they don't have those controls, or have them but don't properly execute them, that is their problem.

    Also, if I read the story right, there were 14 gamblers who worked out what was happening and upped their stakes enormously to take advantage. So, 14 people noticed this and changed their action based on it, but neither the dealer nor pit boss picked up on it??? That's the casino's problem, right there.
     
    Bright light city's gonna set my soul...
  10. abrolsma

    abrolsma Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2012
    Messages:
    469
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    19
    It bothers me that incompetence can be overruled by the legal system. Are you telling me no one in the pit recognized the strange betting patterns and non-shuffled cards until the 41st hand was won? Shouldn't there be some accountability for the stupidity portrayed here outside the scope of our legal system?

    This sets precedent that when a large jackpot is won (say 7 card straight flush on Pai Gow) the casino can later try and prove that it was a bad shuffle and the winner should have to pay the money back?

    This decision makes me physically ill...
     
  11. sco5123

    sco5123 VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,698
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    11
    More bad press for Nj casinos.
     
  12. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2010
    Messages:
    10,096
    Location:
    At the tables
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    30
    do tell us about those merits.
     
  13. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Messages:
    11,127
    Location:
    TN
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    19
    Based on what I am reading, the players KNEW what was happening, and took full advantage of it. As much as I would love to take the casino for all they are worth, it is hard to say the casino is in the wrong here. Okay, they should have figured it out themselves and stopped play or something. Amazing that the players could figure it out, but the professional floor people could not see it.

    The court is just using what amounts to a loophole to stop what some might call cheating on the part of the players. Though they did not sit down with the intention of cheating, they recognized an opportunity and decided to take advantage of it.

    I know many of you will argue, but one must look at the whole picture here.
     
  14. abrolsma

    abrolsma Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2012
    Messages:
    469
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    19
    I don't disagree with the spirit of your post nostresshere - I just think that legal and ethical are two different things. And taking advantage of the mistake may be unethical.. but not illegal.. if the players who sat down rigged it so the cards were unshuffled or were "in the know" I'd be more apt to lean toward illegal..

    if I walked up to a roulette wheel and noticed it was unbalanced and every 5 spins hit 17 - I would count to 4 and put $100 on 17. :) but I, of course, am an unethical buffoon that would probably be WAY TOO DRUNK to be able to notice any patterns anyway... :drunk:
     
  15. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,666
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    82
    If the casino had noticed this at the time, and called the hand that was just dealt a "no hand", I would say that the casino was in the right.

    This a terrible ruling from several perspectives, but primarily because it is reversing payouts that occured without challenge at the time of the payouts.
    Is it now up to players to ensure that casinos are adhering to all State Gaming commission regulations before placing a bet or collecting winnings?
    Is it now up to players to alert the floor if they spot an error by a dealer or a floor person?

    Sheesh!
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  16. tedanator

    tedanator Tourist

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    2
    It sounds like the Casino may be getting a windfall if the players actually are able to follow the court order. They settled with the card company and then get their losses back from the players as well? That doesn't sound right.
     
  17. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2012
    Messages:
    3,414
    Exactly!

    This is an awful decision. Where is the accountability? The court put the casino's regulatory responsibility on the players shoulders. Without accountability any regulation is toothless. It is just there to protect the casino, not the public. It creates a huge moral hazard where they can actually game the regulations instead of being constricted by them.

    And separately this has to be the absolute dumbest table crew in history. How could a bunch of $10 players start betting $5000 table max and winning every hand after noticing the cards weren't shuffled and the dealers, pit boss, supervisor, or surveillance not notice it? At any casino that kind of betting pattern would raise a huge red flag and they'd be watching closely, its just ridiculous for the courts to absolve them of any responsibility.
     
  18. Tellafriend

    Tellafriend High-Roller

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    901
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    77
    Fucking retards at GN--AC. Shut the table down until you can figure out what is happening. Wrong result for the wrong reason.
     
  19. MikeOPensacola

    MikeOPensacola VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    2,960
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    55
    +1000. Apparently accountability and responsibility are not in this judge's vocabulary. Bat shit crazy ruling. Unless the dealer was in on it shame on the GN in AC for a.) their utter incompetence b.) going public and making absolute fools of themselves. Nothing like playing the victim and playing the blame game when things don't go their way; especially when it's all their fault to begin with.
     
    Annual Summer Bliss in the Land of Milk and Honey!!!
  20. Tellafriend

    Tellafriend High-Roller

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    901
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    77
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.