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Table Games Is it possible to get shortpaid at craps?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by ICallHimGamblor, Sep 21, 2013.

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  1. ICallHimGamblor

    ICallHimGamblor Low-Roller

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    First: this didn't happen to me... I always count my chips before I hand them over when I leave a table. But I notice that most people don't. They have had a few drinks and just push a wad of chips to the center of the table when they color out.

    What is keeping the stickmen at the table from just agreeing to shortpay the player and split the difference in tips?

    Let's say the player has 845 dollars in chips. What is stopping the center guy (don't know the proper role title) from counting out 815 or something, and the other stickmen agree, they shortpay the player and he walks off clueless and they split the difference?

    I'd think there would be some system in place to prevent this, but I can't imagine what it would be.
     
  2. ND80

    ND80 Low-Roller

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    Cameras

    Everyone is being watched including the employees
     
  3. Turtleman

    Turtleman VIP Whale

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    Intentionally shortchanging a player at craps or any other game is probably very rare. Unintentionally doing it; that is, making a mistake, happens a lot more often. And even if a mistake isn't made, it's not uncommon for the player to think he had more in chips than he actually had and then suspect he's been cheated. For that reason alone, it's always good to make sure you know exactly what's due before coloring up and not just slide out a pile to be counted by someone else.

    A week ago, I actually got shortchanged $15 on my $200 buy-in at BJ. That almost never happens, and I was very quick to point it out. It was probably just a dealer mistake, but who knows? If a dealer, especially a dealer and box man or supervisor are in cahoots, there's nothing to stop them from collecting a little extra in "tokes." That's not any different, however, from stealing chips outright. It's up to the player to keep tabs on what's going on. You cannot rely on Surveillance to catch or correct anything!
     
  4. merlin

    merlin VIP Whale

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    the shortchanging will come on the payouts on the dice, not likely on the cashout.
     
  5. bubbakitty

    bubbakitty native Texan; born and bred.

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    If it worries you I would suggest just dividing the reds into 50$ groups with a $ chip between groups. Greens into 100 $ groups the same way. Then you know what you expect when cashing out and can compare that to what is offered. I keep left over reds (up to four) and left over greens (up to three) and blacks (up to four) so as to skip them being counted and returned as "loose change"......

    It has been my experience the "man" places the chips directly in front of him grouping by color then counts them out just as he does when chips are delivered to the table. He then counts aloud the totals for each and the total for all with (usually) a wave of his hand. The payout then comes from one of the "boys" in larger chips.

    Pretty simple but you ask "is it possible....."....sure.
     
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  6. FXT

    FXT VIP Whale

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    This. Never witnessed one on a colorup. A short changing scam would be pretty ballsy considering they count out everything on the table under the security cameras.
     
  7. hundth

    hundth Tourist

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    I would say this is highly unlikely. I usually count other players chips when they break them down, so with all the eyes on the game it would definitely be a very ballsy move.
     
  8. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    I don't see how its all that possible. First they break down your chips into stacks like 100s or whatever so the total is quickly discernible. Lots of eyes on the game.

    Then even on the incredibly ballsy off chance that the employees are in cahoots and no one else noticed anything they would still have to get those extra chips off the table! If it were so easy for them to pocket chips from the table why bother doing it during a color up when things are being watched? Why not just grab them from the rack?

    Sure anything can happen but that seems like an incredibly stupid way for them to pocket chips.
     
  9. Bo333

    Bo333 VIP Whale

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    Just this last trip the boxman miscounted and left off $1k. I was about to say 'I don't think so' when one of the basemen spoke up. I've seen it happen occasionally (usually not by this much), but it's always caught by one of the basemen as its their job to check.

    I have been miss-paid plenty of times. This last trip it was underpaid $100 on a bet. I was too slow to catch it and didn't make a big deal about it. There have been other times when I've been over paid also. Either way if I catch it I'll point it out and it is rectified quickly. Most of the time it happens when there is a heater going on with plenty of action so we're all making money anyway.
     
  10. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    I've been overpaid by 1k on a color up once. I knew how much chips I had but wasn't paying attention when they paid me to know that there was an extra one in there. the cameras caught it and they came up to me and asked for it back. I looked in my pocket and they were right and I gave it back to them. now would they have come up to me if they had shorted me 1k? maybe, but probably not. however, if the dealer had pocketed the other 1k, they would have had her walked out of there in a heartbeat and banned for life from ever working at a casino again.

    the thing is the cameras see everything and there's no way they would let employees steal from them or the players. because even though it's not their money if they are stealing chips from the players, it's their liability if they have an employee that's doing that.
     
  11. Electroguy563

    Electroguy563 Over-Fried Gambler

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    Exactly. The boxman will spread out the chips being colored up in front of him under the cameras and will sort in a regimented way that affords no mistakes.

    A short pause to enable the cameras to observe the sorted stacks then the boxman will call out the amt. to which the servicing dealer will verify before pushing the color up to the player.

    This is one part of the game where the casino cannot afford to lose their integrity.
     
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  12. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

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    Hmm... three guys going to form a conspiracy, risking their jobs and possibly prison time for $3.33...

    A few other issues:
    - Thats such a penny ante crime... why would they do all this, with that much risk, just to steal $5-10 from a player when the casino has so much more money. They could probably make more money just taking home crap from the back room that nobody would notice and selling it on Craigslist.
    - Why craps? To do this at a craps table you would have to convince the other two at the table to join you in this criminal endeavor... whereas if you did this at a game with just one dealer, IE: blackjack, you just need to pick up some sleight of hand skills and you don't have to split any of the booty
     
  13. merlin

    merlin VIP Whale

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    Another point is that you dont have to color up, you can always just gather up the chips and take them to the cashier yourself if you're concerned about being shorted.
     
  14. ICallHimGamblor

    ICallHimGamblor Low-Roller

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    Yes, exactly. My post was an exact crime report, not a thought experiment. Nothing gets by you.
     
  15. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    This will annoy the dealer almost every time, and they'll definitely ask you to color up as you're walking away. Taking two or three hundred dollars in reds away from a blackjack table will piss off the dealer and pit boss as he'll have to order an extra fill for the rack.

    I don't fear theft during color ups, but if you are scared, count your own chips first, and/or only give them a round number (exactly $300 or like that) to color up.

    There would be no easy way for them to short change you and take the difference in tips, as they'd still have to maneuver the chips from the box man's stacks to the tip box.
     
  16. merlin

    merlin VIP Whale

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    I agree 100%, but if the guy is that paranoid about being cheated then he should do it. For the record, I always count my chips first and then push the stacks out there.
     
  17. makikiboy

    makikiboy VIP Whale

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    I have to agree with auggie, the pit crew have a lot more to lose for such a paltry amount of money. If they get caught they will most likely get fired and I doubt any casino will hire somebody that was caught doing that.

    It might be possible in the smaller dive casinos but I think in the larger casinos and most of the vegas casinos there are more than one set of eyes looking at the payout, plus I'm sure the eye in the sky is also watching payouts to make sure everything is in order. yes, mistakes can occur so it is possible that the boxman could make a mistake counting it out but I am not sure if so many people would risk their livelihood for a few bucks. but then you never know.

    As others mentioned, I usually check how much I have before I color up so I know exactly how much I should get back. I do that because I usually want to pinch a few chips to save so I can tip the dealers when leaving. and as others also mentioned, I get short changed on payouts once and a while so I usually check my bets to make sure I get paid properly when I win.

    Seems that this actually happenned, can you tell us what casino where this occurred? would be good to be forewarned if this is happenning, esp in vegas.
     
  18. yoyoseven

    yoyoseven Low-Roller

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    Like others have mentioned, I too always know how much I'm to be paid on every bet I make, and how much I have coming when I color up (and I watch the boxman like a hawk while he's counting my stack). Only once did a boxman try to short-change me on a color up, and I'm 99% sure it was unintentional. I pushed in $860 in green and red. After counting, the boxman announced $760 and threw a purple and two blacks in the middle. I said, "Um, you wanna try that again?", and he re-counted (while the pitboss was looking over his shoulder), announced $860, and threw another black.

    He apologized profusely, and since he was off by exactly $100, I'm pretty sure he just made an honest mistake and wasn't trying to stick me. I think that was at Sam's Town, but I can't be sure - it was a long time ago.

    On the other hand, dealers have short-changed me on single-bet payoffs hundreds of times. You really have to watch the newbie dealers carefully (and, at the local Indian casino, even the experienced dealers). It helps to make bets in amounts which make it easy to calculate the payouts. I watch the dealers count out my payoffs closely, and if I think they've shorted me, I don't touch the chips until I've confirmed that what they have pushed me is correct.
     
  19. bige2533

    bige2533 Tourist

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    Mistakes happen everywhere. Like others have said, it would be more apt for it to happen during a payout after a roll at the craps table. However, there are times the box man will set out 5 stacks of $5 chips to reach a $100 instead of 4 stacks meaning the player lost $25. I like to think that doesn't happen intentionally because they are trying to count the chips quickly and keep the game going. But, I always pre-count my chips before and give it to them in an even amount keeping the smaller chips that won't color up to myself. Playing for lower stakes it is rare for them to go to the camera to catch any over/under payments.
     
  20. ICallHimGamblor

    ICallHimGamblor Low-Roller

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    Cool.. thanks everyone for your perspectives.
     
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