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Table Games Interesting Craps Situation

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by stackinchips, Jun 2, 2014.

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  1. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    On my last trip to Vegas I had an experience I've never had before on the craps table that I thought was interesting. I found myself at a craps table where half the table was betting the don't and the other half the pass (and it was literally half and half, one side vs. the other). Normally I would find a different table just due to the vibe, but I was killing less than an hour before dinner and other tables were full.

    Anyways, the side of the table playing the don't is holding the dice. These guys are just chucking the dice, trying to hit chips, etc. (I know this doesn't effect the outcome at all, just trying to give a visual). The table had been fairly choppy, and I don't think either side was really making much ground. Needless to say the whole vibe of the table was just odd. However, things got very interesting after one guy playing the don't and chucking the dice erratically. He rolls a few numbers, maybe 4-5 rolls, then short arms a roll. We're talking neither of the dice hit the back wall, and one of them literally didn't even get past the hardway bets, and the guy was throwing one spot from stick left. The stickman calls 7 out. Quite frankly I think it was utter bullshit. I've never seen a roll that bad, and one of the dice didn't get further than two feet from this guys hand. Now, the house probably had little benefit between that outcome going either way based on the action on the table, but I found this to be an interesting situation. I let the stick know my displeasure, decided this wasn't going to be a fun session, colored up and left.

    It got me thinking though about how odd of a situation it was. Anyone have any similar stories? Thoughts on how this played out?
     
  2. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    Highly unlikely a roll would be called no-good by the box and the pit unless there was a seriously high-roller there and made it known that the roll was BS. A casino would do that to keep that kind of player happy. I've seen that kind of situation happen many, many, many times. In favor of the players and in favor of the house.

    The shooter will be warned the first few times and forfeit his roll if he can't comply with the rules.
     
  3. UKFanatic

    UKFanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    Not really surprised. I was playing at Cosmo once shortly after it opened and dropped one of the dice as I was shooting. The other one hit the back wall, but the one die went about four inches. Stick woman called a seven and nobody was happy
     
  4. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    Of course you usually get a few warnings, but this wasn't like the dice ended up a few inches short of the wall. One went 12-18 inches, and the other was in the middle of the field on the other end. It's one thing to come up a bit short it's another to have an egregious roll like that. It's especially strange in that the shooter was benefiting from the roll at the expense of half the table.

    Like I said I've never seen a roll that egregiously bad, and the stick should have called no roll before even looking at the result. I've seen that happen many times (on things where the dice are thrown too high, or things along those lines). If you're going to let that type of roll slide, why not just let the guy slam the dice on the table right in front of him?
     
  5. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    Not sure I've ever seen a roll that bad either. But, have you ever seen a roll called off that could easily be read by the dealers?

    I seen awful rolls before and I've never seen one of them called off. Usually a terrible roll will earn a warning. In this case, the warning wasn't necessary since the shooter was done shooting anyways.

    Does it suck? Yep... I've been on the losing end of a very short roll before. But, I don't think I've ever witnessed a roll being called off because it was short.

    I would like to hear if someone has seen a roll called off because it was too short.
     
  6. Googleboots

    Googleboots Tourist

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    Craps procedure says a roll is live if both dice leave the shooter's hand in a forward motion at the same time. If both dice are touching the felt(with the exception of player bets, the stacks in front of the dealers, and the puck. These are considered "in play") then a result is called. For better or worse. I think it's happened to everyone, but you get upset when it's bad and negative reinforcement makes us remember it more.

    Now, if a box person or stick calls it a "no roll" because of some other circumstance(throwing too high, too fast or any other shenanigans) I would side with the casino, as they've probably given the shooter ample warning about abiding by the rules.

    Personally, in 6 years of dealing craps, I've NEVER seen a "no roll" because of a short shot. Even drunk girls who throw the dice a foot- if they left together, call it and then tell her to hit the wall. Even dealing our biggest games, the players will bitch if a roll is short and results in an out-7, but only because they know there's a 1% chance the casino will agree with them. The debate usually goes like this-

    *short shot*
    stick-"out 7, line in"
    player-"NO NO NO THATS BULLSHIT IT DIDNT EVEN GO HALF WAY"
    box- "sorry sir, it's a roll. if it was a winner we'd be paying it"
    player- "I still think it's bullshit"

    end.
     
  7. makikiboy

    makikiboy VIP Whale

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    I have seen "no rolls" on short shots happen, especially on hot tables. I think the pit boss does that to "hopefully" cool off the table. I've seen it at the Fremont before and also at the LVC. The LVC one was strange, the stickman called a "no roll" every time the shooter didn't hit the end of the table, but once on a short throw when the 7 came out the stickman yelled out "7 OUT" and took all the bets away. I looked at the stickman and got the heck out of there quickly.

    I've never seen a short throw being given a 7 out unless the dice actually showed a 7. I would probably leave the table if that happened, the call at worst should have been a "no roll". I have heard the pit boss warn the shooter about not hitting the back end but as long as the shooter tries to hit the back end they usually allow the throw.
     
  8. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    If this is true, then why not play the don't, wait until you get the numbers loaded, then toss or slide the dice 12 inches from stick right or left, and collect on your 7 out?

    What I'm saying is that while I fully understand that a short roll that comes up 6 inches, a foot, even 18 inches short of the back wall will just be a warning, at some point the "dice leaving the hand in a forward motion" has to have a limit. The situation is even more unique in that half the table won and half the table lost, and the shooter was among the half that won.

    Like I said, I've seen bad rolls, short rolls, rolls that don't make it to the wall from the opposite end of the tub, etc. Some of those have been winners and some losers. However, when a guy is one spot away from the stick, and neither of the dice make it within two feet of the wall, and one of them doesn't even make it to the halfway point (that is literally a 12-18 inches from the shooter) a no roll should be called IMO.
     
  9. Vegas Lover

    Vegas Lover Low-Roller

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    I've seen a short roll called a No roll before. A woman was rolling the dice, & you could tell she was a newbie. She rolled the first couple of times and they were very short rolls. Then finally the stickman got kinda pissed b/c she kept doing it. So he called a "No roll" on her next roll & it was a 7, but since it a was a no roll she kept shooting. It was pretty awesome :)
     
  10. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    Just because you throw a roll short, doesn't mean you're going to seven out. The idiot that threw the dice short could have hit the point just as easily and the other half the table would have won.

    Perhaps if you were throwing around more tokes the dealers and stick would have had more sympathy on you? Not saying that you weren't... but when I'm tipping and chatting with the crew, the more sympathy they have for me and the more their willing to go to bat for me. After all, it's their money on the table as well.
     
  11. DeMoN2318

    DeMoN2318 The DERS

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    If the short roll would have been the point this thread wouldnt exist...
     
  12. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    Not unless we were chatting with the fool betting on the seven. I could just imagine the shooter barking about how he didn't toss the dice far enough and the point shouldn't count.

    Gamblers are fickle people.
     
  13. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    If it really doesn't matter as you seem to be stating as fact, then why does the house request that you hit the wall where they have special padding to ensure a random outcome? There's a reason they require it. Hell most box men will bitch at you when you're at the far end of the table and the dice hit the pass line and "stick" and don't touch the wall. You're telling me that a roll that goes 18 inches is just as random as hitting the wall?

    I just colored up and left because the table had a bad vibe with the 50/50 thing. Which also makes it more important IMO to have a random outcome of the dice, due to the conflict between the shooter and others.

    Just an interesting situation, and while I wasn't happy about booking a $100 loss, I just moved on. It really just comes down to, at what point is a short roll too short? And how important is it to have a random outcome of the dice, especially when the shooter is playing the don't? I guess for some people they feel no roll is too short even if the dice are dropped on the felt 2 inches in front of someone's hand...
     
  14. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    I'm sure everyone who has played craps long enough has experienced your situation one time or another... and I'm positive I lost more than $100 on those times that it's happened.

    I've just never seen the box call off a roll like that. Regardless if it was in favor of the player or the house. The player gets a warning on a short roll.

    If he's seven'd out, there's no need to warn him. He's lost the dice anyways.

    The casino makes money on every outcome of the dice no matter what the dice read. There's a built-in house advantage on every bet (odds withstanding). As long as the game keeps going, they keep making money.
     
  15. Googleboots

    Googleboots Tourist

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    It should go without saying that the dice need to be thrown toward the wall. Sliding them a short distance wont get you anywhere but the door for trying to cheat the casino(and failing). Next time you walk by a closed craps table, feel the table by the vertical lines of the Hardways. About 90% of tables have wire installed under the layout to create two "speed bumps" that are almost invisible to the naked eye. Their purpose is to prevent people from sliding the dice all the way down the table.

    I can't speak for every dealer and box person's decisions, but I can tell you everything about craps you need to know otherwise. :)

    @Undathesea- You DO see Don't bettors throwing fits when the shooter doesn't hit the wall one time. It's funnier when they complain, then the shooter hits the wall and the point. You just smile and say, "happy now?"

    Just remember, no matter what anyone says or does, it's all random! Just have fun.
     
  16. jrinct1

    jrinct1 VIP Whale

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    I have seen a dice hit a player on the opposite end of the table and come back on the playing surface which resulted it being a 7 OUCH!! when the table was just starting to turn. There were a LOT of UNHAPPY campers....because outside of the person that was hit by the dice ( he was the only 1 PLAYING don't) EVERYONE ELSE was playing from the right.
     
  17. casinoboy

    casinoboy Low-Roller

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    i dont think tipping makes a diffrence for this scenario. in my experience they will usualy call a 7 out however the dice are rolled, doesnt matter if they hit the wall or not. but if someone isnt hitting the wall and making points they will keep telling them to hit the wall. tipping only helps the dealers and stickman but the boxman is the one who makes the decisions and i dont think they share in tips. i think they are like pit bosses.
     
  18. vsop

    vsop Low-Roller

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    I've seen shooters drop one dice/die and immediately the stick will call out...NO ROLL....but when both dice leave the hand...well, I believe the dealers are wired to call seven out when they see it...
     
  19. TIMSPEED

    TIMSPEED !địt mẹ!

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    EXACTLY! They do as they're told, no matter if you're tipping (even BIG) or not..you aren't paying their PAYCHECK, the Casino is.

    Solution: Do not play table games.
     
    Palace Tower Suite!
  20. tipdrill

    tipdrill Low-Roller

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    What's the "winning" alternative to table games...? Poker? Sports Betting?
     
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