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If I'm doing a "check change" for >$10k, are there still IRS forms?

Discussion in 'Misc. Vegas Chat' started by notfromconcentrate, Nov 24, 2015.

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  1. notfromconcentrate

    notfromconcentrate Low-Roller

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    Let me pose the following scenario to you...

    - I buy $5,000 worth of chips in cash at Example casino (from what I understand, this does not trigger IRS form requirements)

    - With these chips, I play blackjack for a bit and walk away with $12,000 (suppose it's 12 $1,000 chips, coloured up)

    - I return to the same casino the next day, wanting to break down my $12,000 into purples and blacks to play a $100 game

    In doing this, have I "engaged in a transaction" that exceeds $10,000 requiring a "cash transaction report"? I can't see how this would be the case, given that I would simply be changing the denomination of gaming chips that aren't actually being "transacted" from one party to another. But I have no familiarity with this sort of thing, and would really appreciate some insight here.
     
  2. Breck

    Breck Tourist

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    I don't outright know the answer, but I'd like to know why would you break down all 12k? Why not break down 5-6k? That would leave you plenty to gamble with, and if you lose 3k, then you don't have a "problem" when you use the 6-7k remaining in your pocket.
     
  3. Hobofrank

    Hobofrank Prime Minister of Idiocracy

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    Over $10K in any series of transactions under 24 hrs is the metric
     
  4. Mafioso

    Mafioso Low-Roller

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    As long as its not in CASH you will not get title 31ed

    So You have the right idea
     
  5. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    Chips aren't cash.

    Now when you go cash out that 12k, they will require your SSN and DL.

    But if you proceeded to lose 3k and went to cash out 9k there would be no form.
     
  6. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    The form really does not mean much. It does not require any reporting by you. It has no impact on your tax forms. It does not prove you won a single cent. Just not a big deal.
     
  7. notfromconcentrate

    notfromconcentrate Low-Roller

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    It's more to do with me wanting to remain anonymous to the casinos. While I can typically get away as a no-name, once you start exchanging that kind of money, the excuse of "we have to collect x, y, and z information about you for compliance purposes" is a very convenient way to break my anonymity. It's for this reason that I'd rather fly under the radar.
     
  8. notfromconcentrate

    notfromconcentrate Low-Roller

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    Yes, I figured the "chips not cash" part to hold true - so thank you.

    Now, as a Canadian, I have no SSN. I realize that there is a standard procedure for non-Americans to have any withholdings given back to them, but suppose I did come to the cage with >$10k and "forms" of sorts were required... how extensive would they be, if anything at all?

    Per my last comment, my objective is anonymity to the casinos, so I'm sure I can get rid of the chips some other way without having to give my name/ID... but if that would prove too complex an undertaking, I'm just curious as to what I'd have to go through to get my money if it's >$10k.
     
  9. bubbakitty

    bubbakitty native Texan; born and bred.

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    I may be missing something. Why not just go back and cash out say 7 K and keep the rest in chips? Then later if you need more chips just buy fresh. Just keep a given number in chips on your person at all times until leaving.
    This way you never have to negotiate the magic figure to trigger the paperwork.
     
    1st Super Bowl DT...Panthers / Browns no doubt
    Spur of momento trip
  10. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    that just kicks the bucket down the road until you leave.

    but then you have all these chips you have to cash out.

    the 10k limit is daily cash in or out.
     
  11. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    you're not going to be able to cash in that many chips without a players card.

    and if you have a player's card, the casino knows who you are.

    there is no way to play that big and stay anonymous.

    anyway, there's only 2 reasons you'd want to be anonymous to the casino:

    1) you have a system that is guaranteed to win and you're worried they'll shut you down when you crush them.
    2) you are cheating in some way or are a counter (a cheater in their book).

    in the case of (1), casinos love systems players and will never shut you down no matter how much you win.

    in the case of (2), they don't need to know who you are. they use facial recognition and if they catch you and back you off, they will know whenever you step foot in the casino.

    so basically, there is no reason whatsoever to stay anonymous to a casino.

    now, I certainly can understand wanting to stay anonymous to the IRS and that's a different topic entirely. except you're Canadian so there's no reason for you to care whatsoever.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2015
  12. 44inarow

    44inarow VIP Whale

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    The other thing to bear in mind is that intentionally trying to stay below $10k is a very, very bad idea. Cashing out above $10k generates a transaction report that, as Shifter has correctly pointed out, is completely meaningless for tax purposes (the IRS can, in theory, get access to FINRA forms if they're otherwise suspicious that you're engaged in tax fraud, but it's not like a W-2G where it automatically is reportable income). Cashing out below $10k in order to avoid the aforementioned report can result in what's called a Suspicious Activity Report, which is not something you want.
     
  13. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    Cashing chips will not result in any withholding. The withholding only comes on certain (and very rare) table winnings, and any slot winning over $1,200.

    You can cash in $40,000 in chips from blackjack and there is no withholding at all.

    The forms are only to keep an eye out for money laundering.
     
  14. notfromconcentrate

    notfromconcentrate Low-Roller

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    Putting my stance in this debate aside, I have to say that I admire your linear thinking fashion. It's quite a good one.

    However, I'm curious as to what you mean by not being able to cash in that many chips without a players card. Is there any actual enforceable rule that says "redeeming >$_____ in chips requires a player to have a players card"? I realize that they have the right to "resist" paying you in some fashion if it's >$10k as a matter of just filling out the form...but I can't imagine that they would have the right to demand that I register for a player's card, just to cash out chips that are legally payable to the bearer.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2015
  15. NickPapageorgio

    NickPapageorgio OG of the Sal Sagev Hotel

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    That is nonsense. A SAR is filed for just that, suspicious activity. Unless you are involved in structuring activities, with numerous banking events just below the 10k threshold with the intent to avoid the reporting requirement, a SAR being filed at a casino means absolutely zilch, and certainly isn't something to worry about. On top of that, you would have no idea that the SAR is even being filed.

    Nick:beer:
     
  16. 44inarow

    44inarow VIP Whale

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    Which part is nonsense? He was specifically asking about how to avoid reporting. My point was that trying to do so is likely to be noticed, and it's not a good idea.
     
  17. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    Chips are the property of the casino at all times.

    They have no legal requirement to cash it in.

    They always verify where they came from and who won them.

    They use the players card to track that.

    If they can't verify it, they will hand the chips back to you to keep for as long as you wish.
     
  18. NickPapageorgio

    NickPapageorgio OG of the Sal Sagev Hotel

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    "Cashing out below $10k in order to avoid the aforementioned report can result in what's called a Suspicious Activity Report, which is not something you want."
     
  19. Iceicecool

    Iceicecool Low-Roller

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    Shifter this is the first time I have ever disagreed with you. The casino does have a legal requirement to cash in chips that were legally bought or won. A players card is not absolutely required, but can make things difficult without one. If a casino denied cashing in chips you legally bought or won, the gaming commission will get involved, They will ask you what time and what game did you purchase or play with the chips. The casino will be forced to prove your claim wrong with surveillance video.

    Also a transaction over $10K requires the person to show ID. If that person refuses to show ID, all gaming transactions stop for that person immediately. A person will not be forced to show ID and will not be detained either.

    The form filled out is not an IRS form. It gets sent to the Dept of Treasury and is only reviewed if there is other suspicion about the person to review all their transactions.

    A casino employee can fill out a Suspicious Activity Report for any reason that they think is suspicious, at any time for any amount of money. It's not going to trigger an investigation of you but again, it will be reviewed later on if there is an ongoing investigation of your financial matters.

    The initial poster's question is not a valid question. He is either trying to cheat the IRS, or he is trying to hide money laundering, either way something is illegal and we should not give him advice on how to do this.
     
  20. Aces and Eights

    Aces and Eights VIP Whale

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    Out of all the times I cashed out four or five thousand (20 or so times), they only asked once at what table I played. But many of those times, I cashed out many hours or even a day after I colored up. For 12k or so I may keep a few k for gambling and cash out the remainder, maybe at two different times. I would guess that it would be different if it was in the multiple 10k range.

    I did know someone who cashed out a sportsbook parlay of 22k on a 2k bet. They just gave him the cash with no questions asked or forms being filled out.
     
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