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Table Games Huge Roulette Scam Being Investigated!

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Huddler, Nov 8, 2013.

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  1. Huddler

    Huddler VIP Whale

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    No truth to the rumor that Beejays crew was involved...

    http://www.wmctv.com/story/23847281/tunica-casino-officials-may-help-investigate-roulette-scam

    (WMC-TV) - Gaming commission investigators say a crime ring is creating fast and experienced cheaters.

    More than four dozen suspected cheaters are now behind bars, and authorities are still looking for dozens more.

    "I can believe it. People are always trying to get money and scam people out of their money," said casino patron Torica Randle.

    Investigators say four men were arrested in Ohio and convicted on charges that they are part of a roulette scam inside casinos in 18 states.

    Investigators say it is a color-up scheme. Here is how it works:

    Player one starts it.
    He or she buys $1 chips. The other players on the crime team join the same table and distract the dealer and keep an eye out.
    Player one ends up pocketing the chips and meets player number two handing over the chips.
    Player two heads back to the table and buys in at a much higher amount with the same color chips. He or she ends up putting the lower dollar chips back into play, which will turn $1 chips into 25 dollars making it a loss to the casino and the state.
    So far 13 people have been arrested in Ohio, but only four showed up in court. This group hit Cleveland, Toledo, Columbus and Cincinnati where they were eventually caught. They were arrested on the gaming floor after casino staff realized what was going on.

    Mississippi Gaming officials have offered Tunica casino officials with assistance in the investigation. The people arrested so far have all been from the Bronx, other parts of New York, or New Jersey.
     
  2. BeeeJay

    BeeeJay President of The Red Lobster Hostess Satisfaction

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    i guess that is why they are such cocks about which colors they can give you with the $5 chips at Rivers in Des Plaines

    really you would have to have some less than well-trained casino staff to let this get past them....unless its really small dollar amounts
     
  3. sindustry

    sindustry VIP Whale

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    I am not a regular roulette player, so I am not familiar with the etiquette for that game. I usually bring red or green chips to the table, or just buy a few green chips at the table. I only play a couple spins and then leave. Is it generally frowned upon when I play with actual chips? Should I be asking for the table chips?
     
  4. uli_1515

    uli_1515 Low-Roller

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    No they want you to play with the largest chips you can.
     
  5. ssyx

    ssyx Low-Roller

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    This is an old scam and one I thought all casinos were well aware of.
    Surprised it took so long to catch them.

    I saw this tried and failed as a dealer in the UK over fifteen years ago.
     
  6. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

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    This sounds so easy in theory but most casinos I've played at it would never work: they either have electronic chip sorters/counters or a pit boss or second dealer that is sorting chips and keeping a count of how many are out there.
     
  7. Tellafriend

    Tellafriend High-Roller

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    the way they protect against this at the better casinos is that when a player comes up and wants to play color $25 chips they will count each and every one on the table. so when you cash out, if the are more chips than when you started, they know there is a problem.
     
  8. DOUBLE B

    DOUBLE B Tourist

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    I am missing something here! Where I play roulette (Vegas) the dollar amount is stamped on the chip(s). Regardless of the denomination the chip(s) are colored and stamped with its value.

    Am I to understand that in some casinos the value of a chip is not stamped or recognized by its color? I am missing something here................
     
  9. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

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    You are talking about casino chips... those are colored and stamped with a denomination, IE: white = $1, red = $5, green = $25, black = $100

    Roulette has its own chips. These are colored chips that when you buy in at a roulette table you tell the dealer what denomination you want to play with.
    IE: you walk up with a black $100 casino chip you could tell the dealer you want $5 chips at which you will get 20 chips... if you ask for $25 chips you'll get only 4 chips, if you ask for $1 chips you'd get 100 chips

    The dealer will take a chip of your color and place it on the outside of the wheel, the position of which marks the value of your chip (or at some places they will place a casino chip of the same value under your chip on the edge of the wheel)

    Then, when you are done playing roulette any roulette chips you have leftover you must cash in at the table before leaving because the chips will have no value away from the table.


    They have to do this because otherwise how could you keep track of player's bets with how many chips sometimes end up on the table. IE: if you put three $25 casino chips on #17 and I put one $25 casino chip and three $5 casino chips... how would we know whose chips are whose when it comes to paying out?
     
  10. DOUBLE B

    DOUBLE B Tourist

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    I play roulette a minimum of 10-12 hours per month at South Point. It is pretty much as you said....with one major exception.. $1 chips come in of 5 different colors. They WILLL NOT have 2 players with the same color $1 chips...if all colors are being used one will have to wait till a player drops out then a color will become available. The $5 red (I think), $25 is green and $100is black. Yes! There are times when 1 or 2 or more players will have a green or black chip on the same number/color.

    I have played 100's of hours (and that is no exaggeration) I can tell you that not one time (not ever) has a problem come up with "he got my chips". If it did---call the eye in the sky! And run the would be cheater out of the casino.
     
  11. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

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    No thats pretty much what I said: those $1 are the roulette chips.

    In this case you are probably thinking they are just "$1 chips" because thats likely all anybody is playing with at the tables there, but you can actually ask for those chips to have a different denomination than just $1.
     
  12. DOUBLE B

    DOUBLE B Tourist

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    Excuse me? Maybe you need to read my post again.

    Let me put it this way!

    Typically there will be 5-6 or 7 players at a table. (South Point). I always buy on for $340. (1-$100 chip-black) (8 $25 chips-green) (4-$5 chips-red?) (20-$1 chips).

    Whatever color my $1 chips is I will be the only one with that color ($1-only) chip.

    The 5 and 25 and 100 are red/green/black respectively. Anyone/everyone at the table with a 5 or 25 or 100 chips will all have the same color(s) (red/green/black).

    Yes, at times there will be a $1 chip, a $5 chip, a $25 chip a $100 chip all on the same number and/or color.

    There may be 2 or more players with $25 chip(s) on the same number/color.

    I repeat...in 100's of hours playing I have never/ever seen or heard of a dispute of who-had what-where.

    If a dispute was to come up--eye in the sky and dump the would be cheater.
     
  13. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

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    Those $5, $25 and $100 (red/green/black) chips are just regular casino chips.
    The "whatever color my $1" chips: those are the roulette chips.

    In this case you are getting the roulette chips at a $1 denomination... but you can get them in higher denominations.

    IE: if you went up to the table with your $340 and said "I want $5 chips" and the next color was yellow then they would give you 68 yellow chips. That doesn't mean they are ripping you off by only giving you $68 worth of $1 chips... it means the value of your chips is $5.


    And going back to the original post: thats how the scam worked.

    As an example: Bob goes up to the table and plunks down $200 and asks for $1 chips. Yellow is the next color so they give Bob 200 yellow chips, worth $1 each.
    Bob starts playing a bunch of chips on the table, wins some, loses some.
    During the course of his play Bob slips maybe 10 chips in to his jacket pocket.
    Bob decides he has had enough and cashes out 150 yellow chips... the dealer gives him $150 worth of casino chips.
    Bob then heads to the bathroom, where he meets up with Tom and gives Tom the 10 yellow chips he swiped from the table.
    Tom then goes to the table and buys in with $500 and asks the dealer for $25 chips and seeing as yellow is available says "I would like the yellow chips"
    The dealer then gives Tom 20 yellow chips ($25 * 20 = $500)
    Tom plays a very conservative break-even style.
    Every 2nd or 3rd game he plays Tom takes one of the "Bob Yellow" chips out of his pocket and adds it to his stack on the table.

    After playing for about an hour Tom probably has most of his original buy in still there in front of him and has managed to add all 10 of the "Bob Yellow" chips to his stack... so when Tom cashes out he is probably getting somewhere around $650-800
     
  14. Lincster

    Lincster Low-Roller

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    Well these are some pretty poorly controlled casinos then, and the floor managers need to be fired quickly. There is always a set number of roulette chips in each color. Usually 200 or 240 (10-12 stacks of 20 each). If someone colored up and the table found those 200 chips weren't there, they simply would not put that particular color back in play until they could find where they went. The chips also have the number of the table on them, so you can't go to a different table and play them.

    If this is really happening, it is a HUGE mistake by the floor as this is one of the simplest scams to try, and a very simple one to stop.
     
  15. jdvegas

    jdvegas VIP Whale

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    This was exactly my thought the moment I read it. I am perplexed as to how they would allow a color to be issued to a new player if they did not have 100% of the chips accounted for.
     
  16. IWannaBeInVegas

    IWannaBeInVegas VIP Whale

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    First off remember the Ohio casinos are new, the oldest being about 18 months old meaning that MOST of the pit supervisors and floors are fairly inexperienced vas these crews know this going in to run their scams.

    I do not deal roulette but iv watched it several times plus iv sorted chips when the machine was down. The dealers always tell people not to take the non-value chips from the table but when you have a full table it's nearly impossible to watch every chip in play and infront if the players. Until someone is on the dealing side of things it's easy to say the dealer should know this or that but in reality it's not as simple as one thinks and I'm very familiar with this case, the dealer that brought it to the higher ups attention is a close friend of mine.
     
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  17. vegasvic

    vegasvic VIP Whale

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    If you want a good read on a roulette scam read American Roulette by Richard Marcus. He's an interesting guy, I've seen him on TV and emailed with him a few times.
     
  18. arizsumda

    arizsumda Tourist

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    I don't think people are understanding how easy this is to, has nothing to do with new casinos and personnel. Auggie gives a good description of one way to do it.

    I know it is easy because I've done it, not to steal money from a casino, but because I collect casino chips, and being a collector, it is a lot harder to acquire a roulette chip compared to walking in and getting a $1 chip for your collection. The stack of 20 I took was for collecting purposes, more to it but not important for this discussion.

    Collectors call it "harvesting", and I harvested from an Atlantic City casino years ago, certainly not a new casino with unaware dealers. Roulette chips can be found on Ebay, matter of fact, there is guy selling chips from the recently opened Grand, house chips plus roulette.

    What the guys did in Ohio has been going on for years. It is easy to get the chips, replaying them at a higher denomination is not that easy. Cetainly would take a team to accomplish. Want to get noticed by the floor person, walk up to a roulette table and request a specific color. Dealer will alert floor person of your request, happened to me. Many casinos now use sorting machines so many times only one dealer is at work on a table, makes it that much easier to walk away with chips.

    It has been over 7 years so the statue of limitations is up, now I can confess
     
  19. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    Marcus was an expert past-poster, using slight-of-hand to replace big value chips on winning numbers after they had won. One of the more clever routines was to do the opposite, place big bets first, and when they lost, switch out to low value chips. This was harder to catch, because the cheating was on bets he would lose, not the big ones he would win, (they'd review the tape on the big payouts and there was nothing to see). But past-posting is one of the crudest cheats, (also probably used on the craps table a lot), and pretty easy to catch. Go to jail; do not pass go; do not collect $200.
     
  20. ajonate

    ajonate Low-Roller

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    Actually, this same scam was being done in Washington State a few years back.

    I can't remember the last time I saw casino roulette played with casino chips. Probably sometime in the 1990s. Instead they use 'wheel checks' today. Each player has his own color, and they are not marked with denomination. The croupier tracks denominations by placing one of the colored wheel checks on the rail of the wheel with a token on top of the chip, indicating denomination.

    Wheel checks make a lot of slight-of-hand ploys impossible, since each player is betting only one denomination. It also makes it easier to determine who's chips belong to whom.
     
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