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Host Comp Calculation Questions

Discussion in 'Comps' started by NickyJ, Nov 12, 2013.

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  1. NickyJ

    NickyJ Tourist

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    I’m a slot player, no video poker, and new to having a host. Comp calculations have lots of variables, but any general information or personal experiences would be helpful.

    1. Do hosts usually code your stay to an existing offer in your account? If yes, are they only on the ‘hook’ for additional comps they provide?

    2. For easy calculation, if I have $10,000 coin in, what would be a realistic comp amount on that play, $200? - 10% hold, 20% theo back?

    3. What value is put on comps like free play, room, food and beverage, the actual value of what a guest would pay, or what it actually costs the casino, which would be lower, or something in the middle?
     
  2. engicedave

    engicedave VIP Whale

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    1. Yes and yes
    2. How long did it take you to coin in that $10K? Remember, time is part of that theo equation.
    3. It's usually close to a discounted public rate, like what your players club card offers as discounts for your level of play
     
  3. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    These are based on retail values. In fact if you look at the comp value for room rates they can be a lot higher than what you'd actually pay if you were reserving them on your own. F&B is of course at retail, that's how you charge it against your comp balance.

    The freeplay question is interesting. Its value is close to face value, so I'd assume that is also its comp value. But I'm not sure how they account for it while it is outstanding, after it is redeemed it is just going to be baked into overall gaming revenue, but before that I'm not sure how they treat it.
     
  4. jdvegas

    jdvegas VIP Whale

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    While they are not "on the hook" for the initial offer, you still have to "play off" the value of the initial offer before they will give you any additional discretionary comps.
     
  5. NickyJ

    NickyJ Tourist

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    Thanks.

    engicedave - I guess that's why I'm trying to better understand how comps are determined. How would the comp value be different if it took me 4 hours one day, or 8 hours one day, or over 2 days to get the same coin in?
     
  6. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    I have no facts for this opinion, but I do not think time has much value unless you do it in a very short order - like betting a few hundred per pull and being done in no time. TOTAL coin in over 4, 8, or 15 hours is valued close to each other. YMMV
     
  7. DRich2

    DRich2 Tourist

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    Time is generally not a factor when figuring comps on slot and poker machines.
     
  8. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    I don't think it matters at all on machines (other than maybe how many days it takes, but that would really just affect future up front offers).

    Time only comes into play on tables, where the time played is used to determine the amount of money you've put at risk. On a machine I could play for 10 hours and 10 spins per hour at $3 per spin, or I could play for 10 minutes at 10 spins per minute for $3/spin, either way I have the same coin in and the same theo in the casino's eyes.
     
  9. engicedave

    engicedave VIP Whale

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    Time always counts, because the house edge increases the longer you play.
    The longer you play, the greater the likelihood of the house talking your money.

    My host told me that time is part of the equation.

    If you walk in and drop a "coin in" of $10K in $100 slots over an hour, you'll have a different ADT than someone who coins in $10K over four hours
     
  10. dankyone

    dankyone VIP Whale

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    But the real reason for that is the lower hold percentage on the $100 machines, not the time spent playing them...
     
  11. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Time is meaningless on machines.

    I sit at a $100 machine, put my card in, do one spin, fall asleep, wake up 4 hours later and spin again. Did I play 4 hours?

    One person may do 100 spins in an hour and the other 600.

    Coin-in isn't even the most important factor, it's still theo, and then how much you've demonstrated you're willing to lose. Even on machines.
     
  12. 3544quebec

    3544quebec Low-Roller

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    I thought coin-in was directly related to theo and directly related to how much you've demonstrated you're willing to lose, in which case they are pretty much measures of the same thing just in different units
     
  13. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Coin in is directly related to theo, but all coin-in is not equal.

    The same coin in on a low-denomination slot will result in a higher theo than a high-denomination slot.

    By how much you're willing to lose, I'm talking about actual vs theo.

    Like in a bad run of luck at a table game, your theo loss may only be a few hundred, but you may actually have dropped a couple of grand. That gets taken into consideration somewhere along the way, especially if you have a history of doing it.
     
  14. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    True, you can say the same thing about tables where "coin-in" is all that matters in terms of calculating theo. Coin-in is influenced by time but still not the same thing.

    Its an interesting idea though. If you run a casino and a slot player does the same theo in one hour as another player who does it in 10 hours, are you going to be equally aggressive in marketing to them?

    Or do you think, the one hour guy has a lot more time to gamble more so we should be extra generous with him in the hopes we get him to play longer? Or conversely do you think we should be extra generous with the 10 hour guy who is low volatility and just loves to sit at the machine, he's an addict and over time his bankroll will only grow. Or is all theo equal and we just treat them the same?

    A book I read stated the "type" of player is factored into marketing, at least for CET, though I guess you can draw a distinction between marketing offers and traditional comps.
     
  15. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    Which player do you think the casino likes better?

    Player A has $900 coin in machine
    Player B has $800 coin in on the SAME machine.

    The casino takes COIN to the bank, not theo. Theo is a factor against the coin in.
     
  16. engicedave

    engicedave VIP Whale

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    But "coin in" is not necessarily "cash on hand" for the player. You can "coin in" $800 with only a $300 bankroll, even a $200 bankroll, if on a good machine or a good day.

    This is why time is a factor. The longer you play, the better the house advantage. The greater the likelihood the house winds up with all your money.

    I was told theo is avg wager + wagers per hour, x hours played

    Similar to table games....average hand, hands per hour, x total hours played

    (of course house edge on each game is also a factor on all)
     
  17. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    That formula is coin-in (and the "+" should be a "x"), not theo. You multiply that number by the HA to get theo. Its the same thing for machines and tables, but machines are easier because they track your exact coin-in. For tables they need to approximate it by your avg bet * hands/hr * hours played.
     
  18. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    This.

    The theo for a person who takes 1 $1000 spin on a machine with a 5% hold, is the EXACT SAME as a guy who plays a 1000 spins at a dollar a spin over 5 hours on a machine with 5% hold. (Yes I know that higher denom machines have a lower hold, I'm just trying to illustrate that time doesn't matter on machines). Your theo on a machine is simply the coin in multiplied by the HA of that particular machine.

    Time is used in the calculation for table games because they can't/don't track every single bet you make. Therefore they have to make an estimate based on some assumptions. So they come up with a formula that takes the average number of hands/spins/rolls in an hour and multiplies it by your average bet, which gives them a figure that is roughly the total amount you've put at risk (the equivalent of coin-in for machines) and multiply it by whatever the HA is for the game you played. That's the theo number they use for tables. If they could track every single bet you make at a table they wouldn't need time at all, as they would simply know the exact amount you've put at risk, and there would be no need to estimate the amount.
     
  19. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Time matters in table games because the casino arbitrarily assigns a number of "trials" to an amount of time (ie. Blackjack 100 hands/hour), therefore, time has a direct bearing on theo.


    If they both did it in one day, sure.
     
  20. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Not on machines.

    The house controls the number of trials per time on table games.

    You control the number of trials per time on machines.
     
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