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Slots high limit slot players - question about players cards

Discussion in 'Slots' started by trig, Jul 15, 2013.

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  1. trig

    trig Low-Roller

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    have you ever played without your card for a day or so just to see if the wins come more (or less) often? just insert cash/vouchers but no card.

    if so, what have you experienced?

    or, have you ever had a trip or two in succession where you hit for high 5 digits or 6 digits, and then the next 2,3, or more trips, the hits just disappear?

    I want to know your thoughts on this if this has happened to you if you would be kind enough to share.

    I'd like to see if a pattern appears. I have more information to share, but I want to hear your experiences before I mention what I just found out yesterday from a 30 year close friend who is the GM at a major casino.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Smokey5826

    Smokey5826 Tourist

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    I primarly play $5 - $25 slots and I have always had my players card in the machines. The best I can say from my experiences is I have had good days and bad days (in HL room, I've had more bad days than good ones). But I am interested in hearing more of the story
     
  3. Gino

    Gino "The King of Inappropriate."

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    The few times that I have ventured into the high limit slots area, I had great luck. I hit one machine for $22,000.00 (Golden Nugget WOF in 2008) and one for $90,000 (MGM WOF in 2007 on our honeymoon.) Neither time did I use my Players Club card. I know this thread will start a shitstorm of it's all in your head, the rng doesn't compute the card, slots are the worst bet in a casino, but I really think playing slots w/o a card in the machine can be advantageous to the player as far as wins are concerned.
     
  4. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    Why leave us hanging? What did you hear?

    People's experiences of what happened to them are usually biased. If they're winning or losing they try to attribute it to something, its just natural. So I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that. Plus its the worst type of data to use to derive any conclusions.

    If you're saying something along the lines of the machines' payback or hits are manipulated by your card/play history than that is a very bold claim. I'm no expert but that sounds like it would be a huge violation of gaming regulations. At least I'd hope so.
     
  5. Tellafriend

    Tellafriend High-Roller

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    I'm certainly no slot expert, but WHY would a casino purposefully want to reward folks who are likely not their regular card carrying customers?! I'd love to hear a way to improve my chances!
     
  6. lmondun

    lmondun Low-Roller

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    high limit "patterns"

    I always play with a card in the machine.

    Have hit at least four significant hand pays over the past five years while cycling through free play on high limit slots ...

    ... but I've lost thousands of $$ in high limit rooms playing with my own money.

    I remember the four hits in detail. I really try not to think about the losses. That's the source of my "pattern."
     
  7. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    That they would change something about the machines whether you insert a player card or not, or WHICH card is inserted is a ludicrous myth. First, it's against gaming commission rules and second, why would they bother?

    If you've played with our without a card and gotten different results, it's just because you got different results. The card had nothing to do with it. You're just indulging in confirmation bias.
     
  8. Kimsa70

    Kimsa70 High-Roller

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    I've always played with my card in the machine...unless I was too tipsy to realize the card didn't take.

    In the long run, slots are a losing proposition. I've won 5-figure jackpots, and then had a cold streak that lasted months and months that gobbled up the winnings times 2!

    Most recently, I've had a long cold streak. Looking back on 6 years, I would say that I hit more jackpots more frequently in previous years, and that as of late, those jackpots are few and far between....but as we all know, it's just the RNG in slots that is causing this.

    As long as you're having fun, keep doing whatever you're doing and don't worry about card in/card out.

    Still curious of what your casino GM has to say.
     
  9. trig

    trig Low-Roller

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    "That they would change something about the machines whether you insert a player card or not, or WHICH card is inserted is a ludicrous myth. First, it's against gaming commission rules and second, why would they bother?"

    It's no myth and it's legal. Why would they bother? it's all about the bottom line. When you read the rules below, you will see that by putting your card in the game, this allows changes to the software in realtime. When you sign up for players cards, you basically give them full access to whatever they want or want to do. By using the card, you agree to ALL the terms and conditions that nobody ever reads.

    Nevada Gaming Commission Rules:
    Technical Standards for Gaming Devices and On-Line Slot Systems
    Technical Standard 1 - Integrity of Gaming Devices

    1.140
    Conditions for changing active software on a conventional gaming device or
    client station that is part of a system supported or system based game.

    1.Active software consists of all the games currently available for immediate play by the patron on the conventional gaming device or client station. For this section, immediate play means games that do not require additional software or a change in game configuration such as denomination, maximum wager, payback percentage, etc. prior to the patron being able to initiate play . Active software also includes any software in which a change will interrupt normal game play, i.e. game operating system and peripheral firmware.

    2.The conventional gaming device or client station must: (a) Be in the idle mode with no errors or tilts, no play and no credits on the machine for at
    least 4 minutes; (b)Not be participating in an in-house or inter-casino linked payoff schedule where the change will result in a violation of Regulation 5.110 or 5.112; and (c)Be disabled and rendered unplayable for at least 4 minutes following the change in active software.During the time the machine is disabled a message must be displayed on a video screen or other appropriate display device notifying the patron that the game configuration has been changed.

    3.If the change in the active software is the direct result of a player request, the time delay requirements of section 2(a) and 2(c) of this technical standard may be ignored. However, the active software may not be changed if an error or tilt exists on the conventional gaming device or client station.

    (Adopted: 11/17/05) Amended: 8/8/11)

    In other words, when you inset your card, things can change while you play. Obviously since your name shows up, points, freeplay, etc. What makes you think the payouts don't get adjusted? Is this really that hard to grasp? It's all about money. They spend a ton of cash to get people in the door and they'll do all they can to keep every cent. They know that once they drain some sucker using a card, they'll be several more right behind them.

    why do you think 80% of casino revenue is slots? and no, it's not because of hiring less employees, less expenses etc. Sure, this is a big deal but it's not the main reason.

    someone mentioned "WHY would a casino purposefully want to reward folks who are likely not their regular card carrying customers?" this misses the point. they are screwing the higher limit players because they know the pockets are deep. The penny people are not the target here. The high limit people pay the bills.

    Why do you think baccarat is roped off in a very intimidating area? Because it has very good player odds. Believe me, the casinos don't want the high limit players on this game.

    Look, you can take this for what it is worth. You may think this is just a sour grapes post. It isn't. Whether you believe it or not, it's happening. I might suggest that next time you go, take a day off from using your card and see what happens. The only real reason to use your card is to rack up comps but if you already have maxed out express comps, as I'm sure the high limit players have, it doesn't matter. Yes, I know, it also keeps track of coin in and coin out for taxes. However, if your card is in the machine and your payouts are decreased because of it, you aren't going to have many big hits anyway.

    Good luck!
     
  10. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    I'm no lawyer and it'd be nice to have a lawyer who's better at parsing this type of language chime in, but I think you're being paranoid and completely misinterpreting the text.

    This has been discussed here before, that text was no secret. On those server based games the machine has to be idle and then locked for 4 mins if the casino makes any changes to it. You see the screens on slots locked and updating sometimes.

    The exemption, the way I read it, is if the player makes the changes to the game. E.g. Multi-game or multi-denom machines where the games are set at different paybacks or something. The player chooses his game and the machine does not need to be locked. If you ever played those games you see when you select a different game it takes half a minute or so to load. It's pulling the info from the server.

    There is nothing in the text you posted to indicate a casino can change the odds associated with a game simply based on player tracking. Sticking your rating card into a machine is not a request for a change in the active software.
     
  11. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    WOW

    1 - Why would high limit be any different than other machines? If they are gonna screw ya, they could do it other ways.

    2 - No,they don't play or pay different. More than once I have lost a bunch of money and then realized I did not even have my card in to register that play. @#$%

    3 - As to the reading of the rules, they are talking about a player REQUEST to change something on the server based machine.


    I am just blown away by this whole series of posts. To think a casino will change the random number generator on the fly just because a card is in the machine. Wow!
     
  12. lmondun

    lmondun Low-Roller

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    yep, but it's a pretty common myth. my brother with two master's degrees is convinced that using a player's card negatively affects his VP results.
     
  13. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    so where's the inside details about what you just found out from your 30 year GM friend? that'd be more interesting than some semi-vague commission rules that may or may not apply when you insert your card.
     
  14. maximus56k

    maximus56k Tourist

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    I am no conspiracy theorist, BUT I think I agree with Trig. Ironically I almost pulled my card last week after the worst run I have ever had at Bellagio. I thought maybe it was the 4th of July but began to think maybe the $27K I clipped them for last trip was what they wanted back! It is silly or us to think that Vegas couldn't or wouldn't make changes to the machines that people they know, because of the players cards, are going to feed thousands of dollars through a certain few machines at a very fast pace. Now I didn't dream this up. I sat and watched multiple people hit BIG jackpots on machines in section 3 and 4 of the Bellagio all around me and 3 of them had no card and used their I.D. to get paid.
    I don't really know what to do because hell we have to make them happy if we want the nice comps. This was the strange trip indeed.
     
  15. trig

    trig Low-Roller

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    Look, I believe my friend. I've known him for over 30 years and we have a lot of 'history'. I will not name him b/c thats, well, you know. He told me it happens and it happens all the time. And it is legal. I asked him is this done in Vegas and he said 'where did you think we got it from?'

    Think of it this way: the new card player hits it big and the casino wants it back. The next several trips are cold as ice. You say it is variance --I say it's not. I can PROMISE you when I am back in town in a few weeks, I will be talking to other high limit players and ask them what they have experienced. Also, you can bet your azz I won't be using my card. Why would I? I'm maxed out on express comps so thats no incentive. I'd much rather win $50k+ with no coin in/coin out stats for taxes, than lose $50k+ using my card and getting point play that amounts to pennies. (or getting more free play from my host b/c he sees the $ I've lost)

    All I am saying is my jaw has yet to be picked up off the floor from this information. I about spit out my brunch when he told me this. It's disgusting if you ask me. They want every last penny even if it means skewing the payouts for individuals who have won in the past. They chew up the big spenders, spit em out, knowing the player pool will always be replenished.

    Next trip, for those of you who have experienced this or are willing to take that pacifier out of the machine, try it for one day without the card and see what you think. I sure will be.

    Good luck!
    (baccarat - here I come)
     
  16. FXT

    FXT VIP Whale

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    If this was common practice, I would think a LOT more people would know about it. I dont doubt the shady stuff some casinos are probably able to pull and considering the history of the gambling business, it wouldnt surprise me if there was a loophole in the law that was being abused.

    That said Im still not sold on it.
     
  17. DeMoN2318

    DeMoN2318 The DERS

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    One bad run means nothing...fallacy of small numbers. There is no way to ever test this either...you would have to play hundreds even thousands of days with and without a card...on the same machine. And even then you would have a hard time setting "criteria"...is your judgment based on the number of handpays you get? total amount won? total coin-in? You would also have to play enough spins to avoid variance...is that 100? 1000? 10000?


    I do not think any of this is true, or it would have become public a long time ago. Those commission rules that were posted are from 2011...your telling me that this wouldn’t have surfaced in almost 2 years?


    I can already see the bump to this thread in a few weeks...
    TRIG: "I didn't play with my card and I won another $1M...see I was right"
     
  18. DeMoN2318

    DeMoN2318 The DERS

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    I guess his friend merely pointed him to the Nevada Gaming Commission Rules section 1.140...and then said "see this line...that means players card...think about it"
     
  19. DeMoN2318

    DeMoN2318 The DERS

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    Well 80% of the revenue is slots because they have the highest HA...and they are the most popular game in the casino? Why? Because they require no skill...most people go on vacation to Vegas to relax...not sit at a table and analyze, worry, and stress about perfect strategy. They are there to turn off the brain, drink, and hey...maybe get lucky.


    There are also way more slots than table games...I'm sure if you looked at revenue per machine versus revenue per table the figure for the table games will exceed the figure for slots...but do to the hundreds of slot machines in a casino versus the handful of tables the total slot revenue is the massive majority
     
  20. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    Where did he show you it was legal? All he did was point you to gaming commission regs that say nothing of the sort.

    They'll get every last penny eventually anyway. They don't need to cheat you to chew you up. Especially at the slots.

    But hey if you really believe this nonsense and don't want to use your card than by all means don't. The only guarantee is that you'll do worse if you don't get rated. But what's more strange is that you're still planning to play the slots even without a card after convincing yourself they've been cheating you. Pretty odd...
     
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