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Table Games Has Anyone Heard Of Doubling Down On 21?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by jbpiv01, May 11, 2016.

  1. jbpiv01

    jbpiv01 Tourist

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    I was in Hard Rock the other day, very friendly dealer made the 6:5 almost bearable...at one point she asked me if I ever thought about doubling down on a blackjack instead of taking the payoff. She said " ...because of 6:5...". Not sure if casino's alow it, but it could pay off better...any thoughts?
    Discuss
     
  2. DaiLun

    DaiLun R.C., L.C., and A.A.N.G.

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    IMHO, that is ridiculous. Why would you sacrifice a winning hand for a "chance" at a bigger win?
     
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  3. Ty

    Ty ?

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  4. meyers67

    meyers67 High-Roller

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    A more important question is why were you playing 6:5 BJ?
     
  5. BadKarma

    BadKarma Low-Roller

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    I did this once, just once and lost vs a dealer 5 up card. Yes it was a $5 6:5 table, but I had to try it.

    Never again!!
     
  6. thecarve

    thecarve Misanthrope

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    If I had to guess, he probably didn't want to spend $40 on round trip cab fare to save $25 in expected value.
     
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  7. progrocker2112

    progrocker2112 Low-Roller

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    I saw it at Dollar Days at the Sahara when $1 minimum blackjack tables paid even money for 21.
     
  8. h0und10

    h0und10 Low-Roller

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    I have tried it on 6-5 and 3-2 just for funsies.. it has worked sometimes and it has failed sometimes. The math says to stay and not double though, even on a 6-5 table.
     
  9. breanna61

    breanna61 Super Moderator

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    It's a "piss poor dealer" that would put that idea in someone's head imo.
     
  10. johnvic

    johnvic VIP Whale

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    I think that double down on soft 21 is a tournament play. But I am not a tournament player.
     
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  11. NickPapageorgio

    NickPapageorgio OG of the Sal Sagev Hotel

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    Absolutely. Especially near the end of tournaments, you'll see frequent doubles on blackjacks.

    Nick:beer:
     
  12. LoveDowntownVegas

    LoveDowntownVegas Low-Roller

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    last Friday from hard rock to golden gate and back via lyft, with tip = $26.36. worth every penny.

    and on topic - even if I were playing 6:5 BJ, I wouldn't double 21, or take even money.
     
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  13. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    '
    Doubling soft 21 is a significant mistake even at 6:5 (costs you 0.53 bets vs. a 6), but not taking "even money" in 6:5 BJ would also be a significant player mistake. Of course, it's a dealer error to begin with in 6:5 BJ... Dealers are not supposed to offer "even money" at 6:5 BJ, and here's why.

    Taking "even money" is 1 unit of course.

    Expected value of not taking insurance in 6-deck 3:2 BJ with BJ:
    1.5*(214/309) + 0*(95/309) = 1.039 units

    But...

    Expected value of not taking insurance in 6-deck 6:5 BJ with BJ:
    1.2*(214/309) + 0*(95/309) = 0.831 units

    So the player gains 0.169 units by taking "even money" in 6:5 BJ.

    If the dealer executes insurance correctly, you only get paid 1.2 units when dealer doesn't have BJ, and you lose your 0.5 unit insurance bet, gaining 0.7 units. If dealer has BJ, then insurance pays 2 to 1 and BJ pushes for a one unit gain.

    EV of insurance done correctly without "even money" guarantee:

    0.7*(214/309) + 1*(95/309) = 0.7922 units (still making insurance done correctly a bad bet)
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2016
  14. thecarve

    thecarve Misanthrope

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    I was flabbergasted when, over NYE, I asked a dealer at NYNY (on a 6:5 table) if I could take even money and she not only said, "yes" but encouraged the table to do so. (The relief dealers allowed the move as well.)

    I tried to explain why it was a good move on a 6:5 game but not a 3:2 game to the table. But it was NYE...I was drunk, they were drunk...fortunately, I was able to convince my sister and brother-in-law to take even money when they were faced with the choice.

    Not encouraging anyone to play 6:5...but you might as well try to minimize HA whenever you can, right?
     
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  15. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    I agree. Any bit helps.

    For a 6-deck game:
    Probability of being dealt BJ with dealer Ace up: 2*(24/312)*(96/311)*(23/310) =0.003523 = 1 in 283.8
    Units gained per occurrence (see math above): 0.169 units

    Units gained per hand: 0.169 units x 0.003523 = 0.000595 = 0.06% reduction in house edge. It's almost as valuable as offering late surrender (0.07%). One of these trips I need to play BJ in Vegas long enough to surrender. Never done it, hat's how little BJ I play in Vegas...lately I've only done match play coupons with the game.:whistle:
     
  16. tominiowa

    tominiowa High-Roller

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    I wish I could remember the casino, (old age syndrome) but I tried to double at a 6/5 table I didn't know I was at
    and the pit boss wouldn't let me. I insisted but he refused me. Of course I colored up after that hand.
     
  17. LoveDowntownVegas

    LoveDowntownVegas Low-Roller

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    thanks for the info. the significant player mistake is sitting at the 6:5 table ;)
     
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  18. mickeydfly13

    mickeydfly13 Tourist

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    Well, by that thought process, you should always take even money on a blackjack and not risk the 3:2 payoff for not winning the hand, so.....
     
  19. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

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    Not only that (Lyft or Uber), but there's always the free 10 minute shuttle to Orleans or Gold Coast...and back.
    Also - "$25 in EV" ?? Really?
    Let's think about that one... playing $10 a hand (for easy math), and assuming 3 blackjacks an hour, playing for 6 hours...
    18 blackjacks paying a total of $216 on the 6:5 table at a "luxurious strip hotel"...versus those same 18 blackjacks paying $270... a gain of $54 or $9/hour.
    So, even if one were to spend the $27 taking Lyft to/from downtown, so long as you played for 3+ hours while you were there, it's worth it.
    Personally? I'd just go to the Gold Coast... $5 & $10 double-deck pitch, with DAS permitted... & I'd use either the Gold Coast or Rio free shuttles to get there & back.
    No reason to ever play 6:5, unless you're just killing time waiting for your wife or GF to get ready for dinner.
    Even a very effective card-counter cannot overcome the HA inherent in a 6:5 game... I'd just as soon play craps, UTH or even 3-card than sit down at a 6:5.
     
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  20. Viva Las Vegas

    Viva Las Vegas Ramblin' Gamblin' Man

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    Sorry, 6/5 isn't blackjack, and I'm not doubling down on blackjack beyond a last hand BJ tournament decision.