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Etiquette?

Discussion in 'The Poker Room' started by Big Tip, Oct 1, 2012.

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  1. Big Tip

    Big Tip VIP Whale

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    I am not sure why Rounder's thread was closed as there was no name calling or anything, but whatever.

    I wanted to ask on that thread what is objectionable to the move he wanted to make, a fake push, "oops I made a mistake" to fake his opponent out.

    What's the difference between something like that and thinking long and hard over what to do when you know you have the nuts?

    I heard Brunson Doyle say he thought that check raising was a chicken sh*t move, but now people do it all the time. I didn't get that either when he said it.

    Is not everything fair game in love and war and poker? I am not talking about showboating, like slow rolling, and that sort of thing. I am talking about tactics during a hand.
     
  2. y2mulder

    y2mulder Low-Roller

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    Because there just needs to be a line somewhere.

    Technically, he makes that move......now the dealer has to make a call on the bet, and the floor probably gets called over. And all because some hothead is working the system. And if I am the floor, and I see the guy has QUADS after all that bullshit, I throw him out of the room.

    Sorry for the harshness here, but if you have to resort to all that crap to make money playing poker, then get off the table and take up chess.
     
  3. DuckyD77090

    DuckyD77090 Tourist

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    Poker used to be a gentleman's game. You acted honorably at the table. Even if you were bluffing, you did so with a certain tact and decorum. In fact, this is where the history of the floor conferring with other players at the table (and not going to the casino cameras) comes from - people are generally expected to be truthful and honest in their own actions and when called upon to arbitrate the actions of others.

    Have you seen that big ring that goes around the middle of a poker table? The general concept is you play with your chips on the outside of that ring and then push the chips that you're going to bet over the line in one motion. You cannot push some chips and then reach back into your stack for more. That's called a string bet. As in, you're stringing along the table, looking for a reaction at the first part of the bet before committing to the second part. You also cannot push out a large bet and then go "hehe, just kidding" and make it a small bet. It's almost the inverse of a string bet, but I don't know if it has a name.

    The difference between thinking long and hard and what was described in that post is that while thinking long and hard, nothing crosses that line. As long as nothing crosses that line, you have not committed a poker foul.

    This actually happens all the time in limit poker, 99% of which is because people aren't paying attention to what the fixed bet is. So, in a 4-8 game, you have people betting $8 straight on the flop (you can only bet $4) and $4 on the turn (you have to bet $8) and it's really not a big deal. The action - "I'm betting" - was well-defined and the detail is just in how large that bet must be. If you absent-mindedly throw in $8 after a $4 bet was made behind you, congratulations, you've just raised. Even still, it's not that a big deal because the size of one bet is generally very small in proportion to the size of a single pot or of the many pots that everyone is playing.

    This relationship can change in no-limit where 10 pots can go for less than $10 each and the 11th pot all the sudden has $500 in it. You can very reasonably be into a pot for $150 when someone pushes $300 in behind you... and then pulls 75% of it back... All in a game with blinds of $1 and $2.

    Once the floor is requested and brought up to speed, he has a couple of options. He can nullify the entire bet and call it a 'check/no action.' He can declare the player all-in for his current stake of the pot and disallow any further action from the player. He can force the bet back to the full, pre-decreased value. Typically the offended player will have a significant voice in which of these actions is taken.

    If it the hand played out and it was found that it was a severe breach of etiquette or gamesmanship, the player can be 'asked' to leave (and, yes, I have seen this done).

    With all of this, verbal commitments trump physical action. If I say, "Raise 100 on top," I can make as many motions or pushes of chips that I want, as long as I get the standing bet + 100 out there. Without saying anything, you get one motion.

    The same goes for cards. Technically, any cards that cross that line are dead cards. Now, in a showdown situation, there's some acceptance for flipping over the cards and throwing them in towards the pot. However, if there is any lack of clarity - including any contact between a player's face-down card and any other dead card (collectively called, "The muck.") - the entire hand is declared dead. Even if it was a winner. Even if the card in question didn't help the winning hand. If the player's two (or 4, in Omaha) cards can't be definitively attributed to the player, it's a dead hand.

    This got long. The short story is this. Keep the chips and cards you want on your side of the line. Put chips you want in the pot and cards you want in the muck inside that line. And all will be good.
     
  4. KBT2012

    KBT2012 High-Roller

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    Faking shoving is COMPLETELY different than taking time with the nuts when the action is still live.

    Taking the time with the nuts when you have yet to act is a tactic in order to get value out of a hand....typically that is called hollywooding and can be sniffed out by just about anyone with decent poker skills after they have watched you play a couple hands. (Not saying people don't take their time with the nuts, but overly excesssive time is just hollywooding).

    Fake shoving is an asshole move. That is when you are so desperate you cannot read your opponent or you are a drunk that belongs elsewhere.
     
  5. mike_m235

    mike_m235 Tourist

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    Or you're the guy in the Nissan commercial. If you haven't seen it, you won't get this.
     
  6. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    I read this thread first and had the same reaction as DuckyD.

    You made it sound like a move to push all-in, see the opponents reaction, and then pull chips back. Which is against the rules (if you vocalize the bet or push it over the line) and scummy.

    What Rounder was in fact saying was that, while holding the nuts, he wished he had raised a large amount, and then made it look like he wanted to take it back, when he actually wanted the bet out there.

    That is bad melodrama, is unlikely to work anyway, and is trying to manipulate house rules designed to keep the game fair to trick an opponent.

    More importantly, he didn't wish he had done it because he thought it was his best way to win more, he wished he had done it because he thought his opponent had been a jerk, and he wanted to be a jerk to him instead.

    And count me among the ones who didn't get how he ended up in the predicament anyway. You get called, you show the table. Its not hard.
     
  7. Joe

    Joe VIP Whale

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    Saw the commercial and since I don't play live poker, I didn't understand it. Looked like a guy just changing his mind.
     
    Christmas
  8. DuckyD77090

    DuckyD77090 Tourist

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    I don't know, I thought this was pretty clear:

    Which is a pretty blatant exploitation of Robert Ciaffone's Rules of Poker, section 3.5.13:

    If you inadvertently over-bet the pot, you are bound by that action. If it's determined that you made deliberately fraudulent action into the pot, the floor has the final say at what is to happen: Section 2.1.1

    Most often, the action will be waived off and a check will be enforced. But that's the sole call of the floor.
     
  9. Big Tip

    Big Tip VIP Whale

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    I laugh every time I see that commercial. The good night kiss is the one that finally makes me laugh though.
     
  10. Rounder

    Rounder Tourist

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    Personally I have no problem at all with check raising and I like to do it when I get the chance.If you get dealt pocket aces and the flop comes ace/queen/7 and there are 6 other players who have the action after your decision your
    best option is to check.You have flopped the best possible hand and you want to keep as many players as possible in that hand.Of course there is allways somebody that will over bet the pot so as to steal it via a purchase and this is when a check raise pays off.

    I cant say I allways check raise it just depends on the situation.After about
    3 hours of grinding last weekend I caught the perfect wave.I got dealt pocket
    aces and I checked them and another player bet $20 pre-flop.All told he got
    5 people who called including me.The flop hit and it was queen/7/4.The action was on me and I checked and the pre-flop raiser bet $20,he got 2 callers with me included.The turn was a jack and I checked and got bet into
    for $50 which I called and the other guy folded.The river was a 6 and I checked and got bet into for $50 and I raised it to $100.The guy went all in and I called.He slow-rolled pocket kings and I had him for that as it only made sense and there was no way I was going to fold pocket aces.

    I did not like that he slow-rolled and it is something I am going to start calling
    players out on and be very verbal about.

    IMHO check raising is a strategic way to get more chips and that is the ultimate goal when you are playing poker for real money.I dont sit down
    at a table with multiple people I have never met before to be friends with them.When I sit down at a poker table my goal is to win as much money
    as is possible and to mitigate my losses when I can.

    Rounder
     
  11. g-didi

    g-didi Low-Roller

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    slowrolling is turning over a winning hand - usually a monster like a boat. The guy with Kings obviously suspected he was beat when his all in was called - an overpair to the board isnt a monster. Yes he should show his cards... but I dont know about calling it slowrolling.

    I check raise. I think its part of the game.
     
  12. DuckyD77090

    DuckyD77090 Tourist

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    Last action that increases the bet shows first. If the overpair bet and was called, that player has the responsibility to show first (or, blindly muck, but that's ridiculous).

    Each player who called, in turn, then has the option to muck (presumably, beaten) or show (presumably, a better hand). Typically, players muck their cards once they see a hand that beats theirs - nobody really cares if you muck the showdown out of turn.

    If, for whatever reason, you're not absolutely sure where your hand stands, turn your cards face up and let the dealer read them. Anything else is a recipe for disaster.

    The reason why slow-rolling is a pain is that it just slows the game down. If you made the last action, the onus is on you to reveal first. Just do it. Win or lose with class. You're not going to change the events by taking your sweet time about it. If you don't want to show a bluff, muck it (though a player who calls a river bet may ask to see those cards if they haven't yet hit the muck).
     
  13. pywakit

    pywakit Low-Roller

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    I would think the "oops I made a mistake" move could be considered a form of angle shooting:

    Example: Examples of angle shooting include: miscalling one's hand in the hope that a player with a better hand will muck, intentionally acting out of turn to see another player's reaction, verbalizing an action in an ambiguous manner that can be interpreted in one of two ways depending on how the hand goes, or misrepresenting the size of one's chip stack. Angle shooting is generally discouraged by casinos and poker rooms although sometimes the dealer or the floor will uphold the angle shooter's actions.

    I recall watching "JJ" Lieu in a HU w/Ted Forrest pick up some chips and move her hand as though she were about to make a bet with them then draw her hand back hoping for a reaction from him. It may have been ok to do but I sure thought less of her for it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
  14. Rounder

    Rounder Tourist

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    I see a lot of the latter in one form or another fairly often.A guy will be checked or bet into and he will make a big show of counting out a bet and stacking it and either checking a folding.All it is is a big waste of everyone's time.
     
  15. DonnyC

    DonnyC VIP Whale

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    I heard that a lot of people in Vegas do the whole 'sunglasses over their eyes' and trying to show as little of their face deal - hood, low fitting hat ect.

    Is that true?
     
  16. mike_m235

    mike_m235 Tourist

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    I don't play in the big rooms anymore, but in my experience it's just one ******bag per table on average.
     
  17. y2mulder

    y2mulder Low-Roller

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    Forget etiquette. I want the guy at my table who check-calls pocket aces all the way to the river, then min-raises the river with 5 scattered cards on the flop.

    At that point, kings are ALL you can beat. You will go BROKE playing poker like that. Not to mention, you got the dream KK vs AA scenerio, and instead of taking his whole stack, you won the absolute minimum.

    My home game has a seat available.
     
  18. Red Rickard

    Red Rickard Newbie

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    Touché, I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that.
     
  19. KKB

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    I don't know if I'd say a lot...but, yes, you will see it often enough. Always make me giggle.

    On occasion I have tried the sunglasses thing--don't get it, most rooms aren't bright enough to see the cards!

    I don't even bring a hoodie to Vegas...prefer to look a bit nicer...

    I have tried headphones occasionally, particularly at Aria. I can be chatty & it helps me be less so--important in a larger pricier tournament. And Aria is often a bit less social than lower priced tourneys, so the music keeps me entertained. BUT I only put one headphone on--nothing more irritating than someone who has to be asked everything twice as they have 2 headphones too loud...
     
  20. johnvic

    johnvic VIP Whale

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    I've worn hoodies at poker tables but not to cover my head. It's just a comfortable way to keep warm in an air-conditioned room and I tend to get cold. But I don't put the hood over my head, just wear a hoodie.

    Sun glasses are stupid imo.
     
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