1. Welcome to VegasMessageBoard
    It appears you are visiting our community as a guest.
    In order to view full-size images, participate in discussions, vote in polls, etc, you will need to Log in or Register.

Table Games Edge sorting in baccarat - Can someone explain it?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Packer Backer, Apr 11, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Packer Backer

    Packer Backer Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2012
    Messages:
    167
    Location:
    Cornell, CA
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    13
    I was just reading a story about the Borgata Hotel suing Phil Ivey Jr for edge sorting in baccarat. Can someone explain how this is done?

    "While playing, Ivey allegedly cheated by fixating on pattern flaws on the back of the cards, a technique commonly known as "edge sorting," according to the lawsuit"
     
  2. sindustry

    sindustry VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2013
    Messages:
    3,172
    The patterns on some decks of cards are not symmetrical. The diamond pattern may be cut in half on one side of the deck. If dealers simply take the cards out of the box and shuffle without washing or rotating a cut, all the cards will have the offset pattern on one side, coming out of the shoe. Over time, as you play and are able to rotate certain cards 180 degrees, you will be able to spot the manipulated cards before they are exposed.
     
  3. paperposter

    paperposter VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2011
    Messages:
    5,841
    Location:
    everywhere
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    999
    unless this the one where the forgot to pre shuffle the cards ahead of time maybe
     
  4. sindustry

    sindustry VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2013
    Messages:
    3,172
    Card can still be shuffled...just not washed or rotate-cut. I believe most all casinos have dealers rotate the cut now on hand shuffled games.
     
  5. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    9,890
    Location:
    Missouri
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    15
    But in the Ivey case, they used a CSM, so nothing was rotated in a cut procedure.

    And like you say, it's a method of distinguishing good cards via asymmetric card backing.

    If one side of the card looks like a diamond <> but the other side only looks like half of that diamond image like >...then you can have a system where good cards have <> show up on the right and bad cards have <> show up on the left.

    This site covers edge sorting in a lot more detail.

    http://apheat.net/2012/06/28/what-is-edge-sorting/
     
  6. MikeOPensacola

    MikeOPensacola VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    2,960
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    55
    Annual Summer Bliss in the Land of Milk and Honey!!!
  7. WHIVGOYTUBE

    WHIVGOYTUBE MIA

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    531
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    4
    I was trying to make sense of Phil Ivy, the Big Time Poker Player changing to play a game he has no control over, such as high stakes Baccarat. Well, now I know the reason for his change of heart. :evillaugh

    Then I came across this web site that shows his 6.765% advantage over the house. I would love to have a 6.765% bump in VP. That would help offset some of the bad plays I do when playing VP drunk. :woot:

    http://apheat.net/2012/08/18/edge-sorting-in-baccarat/
     
  8. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,116
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    27
    This was the part where they had to get the dealer to put the discards away the way they wanted them to. They would tell her to rotate them length-wise or on the short side based on the backs that they had seen and the cards. I think the technique is to put all the 7s, 8s, and 9s in the deck one way; something like that. Then during the next deal you'll know if a big card is coming as the first one out of the shoe.

    I'm PRETTY sure the dealer was in collusion with them and they'd gotten to her ahead of time. It's possible she was innocent and thought it was just superstitious nonsense about putting the discards away in a certain way, but I kind of doubt it.

    It certainly doesn't make you a lock to win every hand, but you gain an enormous advantage if you know if the top card out of the shoe for the next deal is a large one.
     
  9. DeMoN2318

    DeMoN2318 The DERS

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,072
    Location:
    Arizona
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    25
  10. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2009
    Messages:
    5,749
    Location:
    Burnaby, BC
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    14
    Nothing from either case seemed to indicate that dealer(s) were involved.

    I know in hindsight it seems like it must have been kind of obvious and all that and with the strange requests for "superstitious reasons" seems far fetched and all that but a lot of gamblers do have superstitions and when I think of dealers being savvy and able to figure stuff out I just have to remember that for about 2 years my sister was a casino dealer (not in Vegas but at our local casinos) and I mean she is pretty much dumb as a sack of dirt and wouldn't be able to figure out this edge sorting stuff even if you gave her a two week course on the subject.
     
Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.