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Video Poker Do VMBers understand vp payouts?

Discussion in 'Video Poker' started by smerrian, Feb 13, 2016.

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  1. smerrian

    smerrian Low-Roller

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    I noticed that a lot of VMBers show trip reports where they're staying at high-end properties on the Strip and playing $1 or $5 vp at really poor pay tables. (8/5 JoB, 8/5 DDB STP or some other short pay table). I was wondering if these people understand that they are losing money at about 4x the rate they would be if they were playing at a full pay machine. Do you think they know that they are getting ripped royally (pun intended!) and just don't care because they like the atmosphere and location of the casino? Do you think they just don't care enough about their losses? They do seem to know if the table games offer a lesser game so I think they must know that they're playing a vp game that's really quite bad. I just feel that these guys aren't really going to Las Vegas to try to win but just to blow a lot of money.
     
  2. wanker751

    wanker751 Dutch Rudder Enthusiast

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    All of the above?

    I play 6/5 bonus at cosmo bars cause I like the drinks and atmosphere. The cost of entertainment I suppose?
     
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  3. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    I'm guilty of pointing out the return in the "standard" way. For example, I write things like 9/6 DDB (98.98%), 8/5 DDB (96.79%), etc.

    But I don't mention enough.... ratio of expected losses playing 8/5 DDB vs. 9/6 DDB = (100%-96.79%) / (100%-98.98%) = 3.21% / 1.02% = 3.14 times more costly to play 8/5 DDB vs. 9/6 DDB.

    And like wanker says, for some of the people here, I am guessing they justify the inferior paytables for the location, atmosphere, room quality that they get comped because of their bigger expected losses, etc. Even myself will be plopping myself down at TAG Lounge leisurely playing quarter 7/5 Triple Bonus Plus with its 2.33% house edge in a couple of days so I can avoid paying $8+ per craft beer. I play slow enough that it's still a net win for me. If you see a guy in a Quebec Nordiques hat, feel free to say hi!

    But at the dollar level, yeah, settling for 8/5 DDB or worse will be pretty costly from the raw gambling results perspective.
     
  4. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    I would think most know it.

    Just like those that go to Vegas when they would be better off staying home. And those that play BJ, or Craps, or Slots.

    They want to gamble. They want the thrill. They want to be in Vegas.

    If they spent the same number of hours at Walmart as a greeter they would be further ahead financially. But, I would guess they would prefer not to.
     
  5. leo21

    leo21 VIP Whale

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    Sure they do. I don't even play VP and I know it.
     
  6. NickPapageorgio

    NickPapageorgio OG of the Sal Sagev Hotel

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    I love this. The worst VP paytables still have a FAR better payback than penny slots. If you have to play a 94% return VP machine at Cosmo to get shoveled top shelf booze and comped 5 star rooms, where again is the problem?

    Nick:beer:
     
  7. wigwam_salesman

    wigwam_salesman VIP Whale

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    I'm not sure it really matters too much. Anyone who plays to win will know to either avoid or accept they they are the cost of doing business (being on the strip) and the casual tourist probably doesn't care as long as the "free" drinks keep on coming :)
     
  8. bardolator

    bardolator Lifelong Low Roller

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    Lots of people don't get the math. Others ignore the math.

    We have people who believe in dice setting, people who believe in Martingales, people who believe in sports betting systems, people who believe in slot machines running hot or cold in predictable ways, and people who believe in all sorts of other things unrelated to gambling that make absolutely no sense to me. The vast majority of people I know, in fact, fit into one or more of the categories above. It has to do mostly with the laws of probability and the difficulty of seeing the relationship between cause and effect.

    They're probably all wondering how in hell someone like me ever manages to have any fun. The answer: I use liberal applications of lucky glitter and try to live and let live.
     
  9. FuzzyDiceCraps

    FuzzyDiceCraps High-Roller

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    Most are aware some may not be, but ultimately for most it isn't a concern. If we were truly committed to finding the best value we wouldn't be on the strip, and likely not in Vegas itself. None of its that I'm aware of do this professionally. Gambling is a hobby and a vacation. If I treat my gambling like I do my career and investments, being willing to spend hours finding the best option my trips to Vegas would lose a lot of their luster. Ultimately I'm coming to Vegas not to win money but to spend a vacation with my wife possibly some friends and just kick back and be waited on. If I spend 20 hours playing vp in a typical Vegas week, statistically the difference in house edge is still very minor compared to my roll. In the long run I'm still going to be looking for those runs of quads or that elusive royal.

    Kind of like my wife who loves the licensed penny slots. She and I both know they are the worst beer in the casino, but she loves them. So i encourage her to pay them. Is it worth saving a few percent for her to play something she enjoys less or in a location she enjoys less or a setting in which she is less comfortable? Absolutely not. Like me, she's there to blow off steam and enjoy herself.

    Personally, I feel sorry for the people who allow a couple percentage points of theoretical advantage to dictate their vacation. Of course they look at me playing games with worse odds and shake their head. That's ok. Over the years I've lost money playing the good pay tables and the only time I got a royal was on a machine with a terrible pay table.
     
  10. TIMSPEED

    TIMSPEED !địt mẹ!

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    I think they just don't care...they're not going to vegas to maximize their gaming dollar.. they're going to vegas because they've got money to blow, and want to have a good time.
    Obviously, even the worst video poker (played optimally) is better than any slot...but on that same token, these people are sure as hell not playing "computer perfect".
     
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  11. Franken Dean

    Franken Dean Newbie

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    From learning on this site the differences, I never play VP if it is not full pay.

    I also have got my fellow friends doing the same. Had I not been on this site, I would've not known, and would be like the masses just not knowing any different

    Thanks Tring and others for the info.
     
  12. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    If you only play VP for 15 - 30 mins or so at a time, you don't care that much about the paytable or playing perfect strategy.

    Good luck finding 9/6 JoB on the Strip. I'm not going to every machine to try and find it, and the info on VPFREE2 is unreliable.
     
  13. smerrian

    smerrian Low-Roller

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    But when the bets get that big on slot and vp games that are that bad, they end up paying for those meals and suites in the pics. It's nice they can afford it but why not play the table games at their rate at their beloved Strip casinos and head to a nice locals casino like Red Rock or M to play some STP DDB at a decent pay table? The Strip will still give them those great comps and even limo them off to the better pay tables for a few hours. Yes, it's all for a fun time, but nothing feels better when you get home than coming home a winner.
     
  14. Funkhouser

    Funkhouser In Charge of the Big Door

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    Aren't you really describing a condition of long term variance?! Consider the guy who is a short session player, how much impact does this really have on his bankroll. I am not talking about the guy who is playing multi line higher wager games, since most people invested in these have better VP knowledge. I am talking about the average tourist or people who want to sit at a nice bar, playing a single line game, who interact a little with people, maybe they semi-watch a game, and place some VP for comp drinks.

    I willingly play poor VP tables at nice barhops for the privilege of my comped preferred drink. I am knowledgeable and follow VPFree2 pay tables. While I would never invest a 4 hour session at 6/5 JOB on multiplay, I find nothing wrong about playing a short term session at those payback percentages. I believe mathematically in the big scheme of things, it means zilch, nada, or nothing because I am playing a much more limited number of hands. I can confirm in practical application this approach of mine is accurate over the past two years, because I have played great pay tables at joints downtown using perfect play and ended up with more losing short term sessions then strip properties. Looking at my 2 year run at crappy CET bartops where I have booked more Royals, 4OAK, and premium hands. All things being even, true my on LV strip play has been at 60% vs 40% in hands on downtown bartops so maybe there is a slight mathmatical bias in total hands played. If I look at calendar day sessions I keep, my recorded play at The D Longbar and Four Queens has been absolutely atrocious. I am talking 60 hours of VP play with a -$3870 loss DT on favorable paytables vs +$8600 on strip.

    So you can not underestimate the power of short term variance, especially witnessed by some of the hits posted in trip reports. I would sum it up as this, casual VP players at bartops should pay no mind to mild variations in pay tables. Serious VP players who play for much longer sessions / trip days should absolutely be concerned with VP pay tables.
     
  15. BayouBengal

    BayouBengal VIP Whale

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    I do knowingly play vp with inferior paytables but typically I am doing it with a trade off like playing at Chandelier at Cosmo getting some really nice drinks. I am probably less likely to parlay it above quarters though with such pay schedules. Like you said, you will be losing that much faster with same paytables at higher denom. I'm usually at Cosmo for several days at a time so I need to manage the bankroll.
     
  16. ACMike

    ACMike High-Roller

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    I will try to find the best pay table I can on the game I want to play in the area where I'm staying, but I won't go far out of my way to play a 9/6 instead of a 9/5. I find that if you're not hitting quads, it really doesn't matter anyway, you're probably going to lose.
     
  17. FuzzyDiceCraps

    FuzzyDiceCraps High-Roller

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    Well said Funk.
     
  18. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Yes, I think they know. And yes, just like with slots and other games, I only think they care so much.

    As for being 'ripped off', are they? Most of the players who even seek good pay tables are playing negative expectation games still. So to argue that you are being logical and other players are not, you need to suggest that it is rational to lose X per hand, just not 3-4 times X per hand.
     
  19. captainron62

    captainron62 VIP Whale

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    I always know my pay table but as others have said I am willing to sacrifice for the experience. I will play a poor pay table in the short term if I like the vibe of the bar or the drinks they are making. I enjoy a good session here and there and I just consider it part of the LV experience. I often tell friends when you go to LV you are "playing with money", money is a toy and a form of amusement so you have to weight that out and decide if your enjoyment is worth your risk and for me it often is.

    Now if I were to grind out a 4 or 6 hour session just for the pure joy of playing VP I will plop down somewhere much more friendly to the wallet!
     
  20. Harry Lyme

    Harry Lyme Low-Roller

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    Ditto what everyone above said, especially to people not knowing/caring/wanting to know, and double especially to those who are just vacationing. If I want great games and odds, I can stay home in PA or take a quick trip to AC. I understand Vegas is some people's primary gambling spot, and in that case stick to the better odds. I'm there for the sights and sounds and atmosphere, even with Downtown. I try to look for not so horrible games, and if I find myself at a slot or bad game to sit next to my SO, I will only commit a few bucks, so it's no big deal. At home, I rarely touch slots and I won't go near most of the horrible pay tables around here. As a side note, I did find a quarter 9/6 JoB at Harrahs in AC on Friday (it's behind where the craps tables are, where the $1 9/6 used to be).
     
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