1. Welcome to VegasMessageBoard
    It appears you are visiting our community as a guest.
    In order to view full-size images, participate in discussions, vote in polls, etc, you will need to Log in or Register.

Table Games Dealers giving improper advice to get more tips

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by ams722, Dec 4, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ams722

    ams722 Side Bet Shunner

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,412
    Location:
    Pergatory
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    15
    So I just returned from a 3 day Vegas trip.

    I played a LOT of blackjack as always. The majority of my blackjack play was at the Bellagio.

    Bellagio has a lot of friendly, helpful dealers. I was really impressed with some of them. They knew basic strategy very well and would help out the newbies to make the proper plays.

    However, one night I was at one of the $10 CSM tables and the night shift came on and we got this dealer that I can only describe as a "hot mess." She was kind of aloof, but friendly and entertaining for the most part.

    The guy sitting at first base was switching between one and two hands. He had a big stack of green chips and would bet a nickel for the dealer almost every other hand. By no means was this guy a blackjack pro. He'd often ask for advice.

    There were a few times when he had a bet out for the dealer where she suggested he double, when proper basic strategy was to just hit. For example, he had a hard 8 against the dealer's 4, and she was like, "You have a good double opportunity here." So, of course he doubled, and added another nickel for the dealer. And he won, so instead of adding $10 to the tip pool she got to add $20.

    There was another time when he was betting $20 and only had $2 out for the dealer. He had a good double hand (for real this time, not a hard 8 like before), and didn't have any nickels left so he tossed a green chip for change. Instead of making change and handing it back to him, she just placed his bets for him. Didn't even ask if he was going to double her $2 bet as well, she just went ahead and did it and gave him the remaining $3 left over from his green chip.

    Stuff like this happened several more times with her. It really bugged me. Suggesting people double or split when it is not the right play just so she can potentially win more tips from their bets is wrong. There is NEVER a time where it calls for anyone to double a hard 8, any dealer should know this.

    Anyone else have any experiences similar to this, at the Bellagio or somewhere else?
     
  2. Tree DA

    Tree DA High-Roller

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    788
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    By giving bad advice she is stacking the odds against her so she's much more likely to get 0 then to get the $20. I would think the dealers would give the proper advice to have the best chance of getting the original $10.

    The fact of the matter is, most dealers simply don't know basic strategy very well. I was once berated by a dealer in front of the table for hitting a soft 18 against a 10. That's the correct move but the dealer and subsequently the rest of the table would hear none of it.
    This one doesn't bother me much. If he had been doubling his dealer bets all night she probably should have asked but I don't think it's a big deal that she assumed he would do so on that hand.
    In addition to my example above, it's my experience that dealers know about 80% of basic strategy. They aren't going to tell you to hit a 17 or stand on a 12 against a 10, but will they know whether or not to split 3s against a 2? I bet it's 50/50. But I don't think you have to worry about the dealers doing it on purpose to increase their tips since it won't in fact increase their tips. It will drastically reduce them and every dealer would know that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
  3. bjpcyclone

    bjpcyclone High-Roller

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2013
    Messages:
    870
    Location:
    NE Oklahoma
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    15
    The dealer certainly has the incentive to tell him to double. If he doesn't double, the 2 outcomes for her (and the rest of the dealers who split the tip pool) are $0 or $10. If she tells him to double, the 2 outcomes are $0 or $20. So of course she is going to tell him to double, they get double the tip by risking nothing of their own.
     
  4. Keyser Soze

    Keyser Soze Low-Roller

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    484
    Location:
    right behind you
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    999
    OP- I have encountered this many times. It bugs me too.

    Dealers only care about 2 things-
    1) tips
    2) the end of the shift
     
  5. Tree DA

    Tree DA High-Roller

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    788
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    I think I may have misunderstood the OPs comment about the dealer getting 10 vs 20...I've edited that part of my post but it doesn't really matter for the sake of this part of the discussion.

    Yes, those are the two potential outcomes but with vastly different probabilities. The chance of the dealer winning that 20 is greatly reduced by giving improper advice vs the chance of her winning the 10 by giving correct advice. I suppose a dealer may be too stupid to realize this or perhaps the dealer is a genius and had calculated the EV for each scenario for the 8 vs 4 scenario (since both are positive EV for the dealer). I doubt it but I can accept that dealers are selfish and may knowingly give bad advice to somehow line their own pockets. So I guess what I'm saying is I don't disagree that there is some incentive there but I don't think it's very strong. Most dealers just don't know basic strategy very well so I think their bad advice is innocent, not selfish.
     
  6. ams722

    ams722 Side Bet Shunner

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,412
    Location:
    Pergatory
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    15
    I agree that their bad advice is usually innocent. That was not the case here.
     
  7. Lord Suspect

    Lord Suspect Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    157
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    I have only seen the bad dealer double advice once they have seen the player do it before the tips in play. I do see dealers in general give bad advice to new players who are not tipping on a regular basis.
     
  8. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2009
    Messages:
    5,749
    Location:
    Burnaby, BC
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    14
    I don't know if the dealer suggesting the player double an 8 when she is showing a 4 is really that bad of advice...

    Yes, basic strategy says if you have an 8 and the dealer has a 4 you should only hit, but at a table with a continuous shuffle machine there is a 40.2% chance the dealer with bust if she is showing a 4.

    By comparison if the dealer was showing a 5 or a 6 those are hands players love to double against but the dealer's chance of busting with a 5 is 42.8% and 42.0% if she is showing a 6... which isn't really that much of a stretch from the chance to bust if the dealer has a 4.
     
  9. Keyser Soze

    Keyser Soze Low-Roller

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    484
    Location:
    right behind you
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    999
    NEVER double a hard 8, no matter what the dealer is showing.

    If your 8 is comprised of 4,4. The correct play is to split if the dealer has 5,6. Otherwise just hit it.

    But if you hate money, go ahead and double those 8's
     
  10. NickyDim

    NickyDim VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2012
    Messages:
    1,103
    Location:
    Long Island. LV starting in 2016
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    22
    If I were able to make bets with someone else's money all night long and I got to keep all the winnings, I'd be betting long shots every single time. There is no probability, no EV, no edge, nothing when you risk nothing.

    Once you put her bet up to play for the dealer, she becomes your partner. You expect her advise, but nowhere does it say you have to use it. If you felt bad for the guy you could have said "the better play or odds are.....". But really, it's his dime, his call, his win, his loss. Was he having a good time? If he was, then it's worth every cent regardless if the advise was bad, intentional or not.
     
  11. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2012
    Messages:
    3,414
    More or less. You still measure it in terms of EV but the dealer's EV is higher playing the "long shot" in this example than playing the correct strategy since there is no associated loss on her side. I don't really think she was doing it to jack up her tips though, I've seen others swear that doubling hard 8s is a good idea.

    For the most part the dealers I've dealt with are pretty good with basic strategy or if they don't know they'll ask the pit boss or something. But I've found some who are so headstrong about their opinion even if they know it conflicts with the facts.

    On my last trip the dealers at Aria were really good, but this one dealer in the HL room at PH made a really dumb comment. Their DD game doesn't allow DAS so I mentioned that restriction could change basic strategy on whether to split certain hands. I never played a no DAS game so don't know the strategy differences. He tried to argue that nothing would change, all the splits are the same etc. etc. I tried explaining that if a split is worth it because of the EV added from a potential double, it may no longer be worth it if you can't double. He acted like I was overthinking it and said "If its a good split, its a good split always". Ugh....I don't know why I even walked into that place.
     
  12. Tree DA

    Tree DA High-Roller

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    788
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    That's not true. The dealer's EV is the P(Winning) X the amount wagered. Positive in either case, but the P(winning) is less when not playing correct strategy. The wager is more so doubling an 8 against a 4 might be a higher EV for the dealer who risks nothing in that marginal case. But as a dealer would you encourage doubling a 20 against a 6 or just take the initial $10 bet and be 95% confident you will win?
     
  13. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,664
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    82
    He's wrong.
    Basic strategy for splits does change (for double-deck) depending on whether or not DAS is permitted. Note all of the Ph indicators below:
    [​IMG]
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  14. broncofn

    broncofn VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    3,921
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    60
    BiNGO!! He got it right. I usually play in the high limit rooms and play green or black for the dealer depending on my bet size or how i am doing. There were numerous times where the dealer would ask the pit boss what the play should be after i asked. Some are in the know and some are clueless. But i have had a few dealers who would be calling cards for me.
     
  15. merlin

    merlin VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2009
    Messages:
    2,402
    Location:
    mn
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    40
    Another one is dealers constantly telling people to take even money, I've had dealers insist that you should always take even money because it's a guaranteed win, I say there is no such thing as even money, there is only "insurance" and if you dont normally take it you would be crazy to insure a BJ.(under non counting situations of course)
     
  16. MikeOPensacola

    MikeOPensacola VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    2,956
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    55
    I am constantly amazed at how many dealers know so little about the game of blackjack. Granted, I'm only a red and green chip player, but it seems to me that a majority of the dealers in BJ hardly know the game from the player's perspective. I would think that the majority of them would at least know basic strategy, if nothing more than out of curiosity and professional pride, but this does not seem to be the case. Kinda weird........:peace::beer:
     
    Annual Summer Bliss in the Land of Milk and Honey!!!
  17. jaybert

    jaybert Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2013
    Messages:
    259
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    10
    Lol I find this one funny too since they seem genuinely shocked when I tell them no. It seems crazy to them to not lock in a sure win, even if it's -EV. I guess if you're a dealer and see people day in and day out sit down and lose all their $, you might become jaded and want to lock in a win anytime you can.
     
  18. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,664
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    82
    My regular 'vegas-buddy' does this - he takes even-money on his blackjacks with a dealer Ace. I've tried to help him understand the math, and he claims that he does, but insists that he'd rather have the 'guaranteed win'. Funny thing is that he plays nearly-perfect basic strategy on all the other hands.
    Why he won't on this particular hand still astonishes me.
    As for dealers? Yep - this is the one more of them get wrong the most often. Telling you to stand on A-7 against their 10 is is a close second.
    The one 'dealer-comment' that gets me is when they tell me, "you do know the book is wrong on a lot of hands, don't you?", typically spoken right after I draw a ten to my 12 against their 2 showing.
    I usually reply with something smart-alecky like, "yeah - that's the real problem with math, isn't it?". Sadly, some of them actually say "yeah" to a comment like that.
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  19. bardolator

    bardolator Lifelong Low Roller

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,426
    Location:
    Green, Ohio
    Professionalism is getting harder to find. That was one reason I retired as soon as I was fully vested. Fewer and fewer colleagues seemed devoted to the work, and we got no incentive from above. Quite the opposite.

    All else being equal, the house should want its dealers to know which players are playing perfectly, which are counting, which are trying to peek at cards or mark cards, etc. Yet in some houses with extra paranoid management, perhaps dealers in the know prefer to keep their skills to themselves.

    Since tips are pooled, that dealer didn't stand to profit that much. Some dealers see us as chumps (which most of us are). In some cases, that could be part of it.
     
  20. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,664
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    82
    Here's how I've tried to explain it:
    Assuming an even count on a 52-card deck and playing head-to-head, what are the odds that the dealer has a ten in the hole?
    Answer: about 4/13
    So, after this hand happens to you 13 times on a $10 bet, how much will you have taking even money 13 times versus not?
    13 x $10 = $100.
    9 x $15 = $130.

    My buddy's typical response is "but it never happens 13 times in a session."
    I then offer to pay him even money on all of his blackjack pushes if he'll promise to pay me half of his bet every time the dealer doesn't have a ten in the hole with his ace. He always declines my offer! Even when I tell him that's exactly what he's doing, only with the house!
    That's when I usually just give up. WTH - It's his money.

    (I think next trip I'm gonna try telling him that he can place his 'insurance bet' with me instead of the the house. Perhaps that will work!)
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.