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Table Games Dark Side questions

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Casinobum, Apr 13, 2016.

  1. Casinobum

    Casinobum Tourist

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    First I'm a newbe at the dark side.....but I have often wondered that If your paid even money on your don't come bet and your lay bet pays less then even money why not put all your money on your don't pass or don't come on the come out roll ??

    I would like a number cruncher chime in and show me..I'm guessing it has to do with your chances on the come out roll ?? Six combos of 7's that can beat you,... 1 combo (either 2 or 12 depending on the house rules) that pushes..... 3 combos that win even money (1-2, 2-1, 6-6, (or 1-1 depending on house rules again)) and 24 point numbers, so it looks like to me that I have a 27-6 chance of keeping my money in play and 24-6 (or 4-1) chance of getting on a point, it just doesn't make sense to me to lay odds when I can get even money for the same amount, what am I missing ???
     
  2. Spookster

    Spookster Tourist

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    Edited for further elaboration:

    Laying odds will pay based on the true likelihood of your number coming out in relation to another number.

    In the case of dark side players, your number becomes 7 once a point is established.

    For example, a pass line bet with odds will pay out 2-1 on a 4 or 10 since there are only 3 ways to make 4 or 10 and 6 ways to make a seven.

    For the don't pass, reverse that. Since its twice as likely for you to see a 7 before a point of 4 or 10, the casino pays the true odds of 1-2.

    It is still paying you true odds on the likelihood of your 7 being rolled in relation to other the point.

    As such, it is still the best bet in the casino. This is due to the 0% house advantage created by paying true odds on a bet.

    If this doesn't answer your question, let me know. I'd be happy to delve deeper into the math behind my explanation.

    Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2016
  3. TMescan

    TMescan Tourist

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    The majority of the "mojo" at the table will be rooting for a 7/11 on the come out roll is the only reason people dont, but if youre going to be a dark side bettor that wont apply to you! I'll make a lay bet only if I get the feeling the shooter is about to crap out (doesnt pay as well as the "dont come" like you said but I dont have to survive the next roll if they happen to 7 out), sometimes it works out sometimes not but thats craps!
     
  4. vsop

    vsop Low-Roller

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    You could put "all" your money (all, meaning the max amount of money you are willing to risk/roll) as the flat bet and not laying the odds...but, the threat of a 7 on the come out roll is huge....I suspect that's the reason most Don't players put the minimum flat bet and lay max odds....if you haven't already noticed, most Don't players have a buy-in BR> $1K....I agree with you, it doesn't make sense to lay the odds, especially max odds....
     
  5. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    Well in the simplest terms, there is no HA on the odds bet, you are paid the exact odds of rolling a 7 vs. rolling the point. Every extra dollar you put on the DP is another dollar you're exposing to the HA, just as you are with the Pass. While it seems logical on the surface, eventually the come out winners will eat you up. You've also forgot to account for Yos in your post BTW.

    Also for illustration, let's say you play the DP along with 2 Don't Comes (pretty common way of playing the darkside). On a point, 7 out, putting all your money on the PL instead of odds, you will break even. Whereas if you were taking odds, you would win whatever the amount would be on your odds. Another example - Let's say instead of putting down a $10 DP and $60 odds, you're doing $70 DP/DC bets. Now let's say that the shooter rolls a 7, Boom you're down $70. Shooter rolls a yo - Now you're down $140. Then another 7. Now you're in for $210. Now you're BEST case scenario on that shooter is that you break even, and that's assuming he rolls a number on the next come out, then two more numbers and sevens out before hitting any of them. Same scenario playing with the odds, you're down $30 and it will only take the shooter setting one number before sevening out to AT LEAST break even.

    Like I said the simplest way to put it is that there is no HA on the odds whether you're playing the Pass or Don't Pass. Every additional dollar on the line is exposed to the HA when there is none on the odds. You can certainly load up the DP instead of taking odds, but in the long run it will bite you in the ass.
     
  6. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    I will add though that I have no problem playing the DP on higher limited tables and taking fewer or no odds. I try to avoid it, but it's not the end of the world. If I'm playing the pass though it's either a table that I'm comfortable with the limits or I don't play. Part of that is because I will have more bets working at any given time if I'm playing the Pass vs. DP.
     
  7. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    Why wouldn't you just take all your bets down instead of laying and just adding to your exposure?
     
  8. DickTater

    DickTater Low-Roller

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    The short answer is that the house has a 1.36% advantage on the don't Pass bet, but has no advantage on the odds bet. Here is the math. On the come out roll, a don't pass bet, of course, wins on a 2 or 3, and pushes on a 12. therefore a don't pass wins on 3 rolls, and pushes on one. The bet looses on a 7 or 11. There are 6 ways to roll a 7 and 2 ways to roll an 11, for 8 possible ways to lose vs. only 3 ways to win. So, before a point is established, the don't Pass bet is at a big disadvantage. But, of course, if any other number is rolled, then the don't has the advantage. There are a possible 24 different ways to hit a 4,5,6,8,9,10. Once all the possibilities are taken into account, people like the Wizard of Odds have calculated that the flat Don't Pass bet has a house edge of 1.36%.

    So, why lay odds? Because the house has 0% edge on your odds bet. Of course, the odds bet is only laid AFTER the Don't Bet has the advantage of having a point established. If you put all your money on your flat bet and not on your odds, you are stuck with the disadvantage prior to a point being established, and the house having the advantage on that bet. I know it seems counter-intuitive to lay $50 odds on a point of 4 to win $25, but, mathematically, you are playing even with the house on that bet. So, the house has a 1.365 edge on your flat bet that pays even money, but 0.00% edge on the odds which you lay to get paid less than even money.
     
  9. TMescan

    TMescan Tourist

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    Im mostly a "right way" bettor...if im laying a bet its only when I'm not rolling/tables gone cold and got a bad feeling about a shooter after an established roll. Made the lay bet several times with a 7 out right after and looked like a genius and have had it knocked off as well...just like go with my gut and have fun with it as I seem to have worse luck surviving the come out roll when i play the dont for some reason
     
  10. vsop

    vsop Low-Roller

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    I hear what you are saying....but, what I believe the OP was trying to reconcile was the wisdom of laying the odds on a Don't bet, when you have to bet more to win less, so to speak...e.g., you have to bet (lay) 2 units to win 1 unit on a point of 4 or 10...bet 3 to win 2 on a point of 5 or 9, etc.....or just take your chances and make a larger flat bet on the Don't without laying any odds...
     
  11. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    I know exactly what he was asking, and I replied as such. The reason you don't is because on the come out roll you're more likely to lose your DP/DC bet than you are to win it. Obviously if you survive the come out then it's better than having it on the odds. The problem is that when you don't make it past the come out, which is quite often, you will get burnt. I was simply providing some examples of why the logic is flawed.

    The absolute simplest response was my first line. The odds bet has no HA, so why would you think it's better to take that money and put it on a bet that has a 1.36% HA? Any more thought given to this question is a waste of time, you might as well ask "Why put it on the PL/DP when you could bet it on hard 6 and get paid 9-1?"
     
  12. Casinobum

    Casinobum Tourist

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    Thanks...that clears it up for me..I'm new at the Dark side and I had a hard time wrapping my head around it...but I get it now !!!
     
  13. winner

    winner Low-Roller

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    Never played the dark side, if I put 5 on the come out and the point becomes 4 and I put 10 on the odds what will a 7 pay also if the point is 6 do I have to put 10 or 12 on the odds and what would that pay, thanks
     
  14. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    Everything is the opposite of the pass line. On the Pass Line a 4 or 10 will pay you 2:1 on your odds (so $10 for every $5 bet), 5 or 9 pays 3:2 ($7.50 for every $5), 6 or 8 pays 6:5 ($6 for every 5 bet). Don't Pass just the opposite, so you would bet $10 to win $5 on 4 & 10, $15 to win $10 on 5 & 9 (don't have to bet $15 but they won't pay 50 cents), and $6 to win $5 on 6&8.

    There is no HA on the odds for the PL or the DP. You just get paid less on the odds for the Don't Pass because the odds are in your favor that a 7 will be rolled before the point, while the odds of hitting the point are less than hitting a 7 on the PL, therefore you get paid more than your bet. Again neither has a HA, you're getting paid the true odds.

    Another opposite (and probably the best part about playing the Don't) is that when a seven rolls, you WIN all of your bets. If you have a DP and 4 Don't Comes and the 7 comes, all 5 bets will be paid and returned to you, while you can only lose one of the bets on any given roll. Obviously that's the opposite of the PL where you will LOSE all of your bets if the 7 comes, and you can only win ONE of your bets on any given roll.
     
  15. Rush

    Rush High-Roller

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    Comps. You don't get rated on "odds", so why not put it all on the line? I could make a $5 bet, and back it with $25 odds, or I could bet the whole wad and get rated at $30
     
  16. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    So you're going to expose your $30 to the 1.36% HA, instead of $5 for comps? So you'll lose an extra 34 cents every bet so you can get an extra 9 cents (maybe) back in comps? That's brilliant!
     
  17. Rush

    Rush High-Roller

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    I answered the question you posed.
     
  18. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    With a completely illogical response. If theo is what you want to generate there are far better ways of doing it than shifting money from the odds to the DP.
     
  19. Casinobum

    Casinobum Tourist

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    Great point !!! you win all of your bets but can only lose one..gotta love that bank roll might stretch a little further...
     
  20. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    It certainly makes playing a little more "stress free". You're never worried about that one roll wiping everything out. Plus it's fun when every one of your bets come in at the same time.
     
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