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Table Games Dark Side Dice players

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by fadetheseven, Jun 22, 2013.

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  1. fadetheseven

    fadetheseven High-Roller

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    Does anyone employ a 100% dark side betting strategy? I've been playing dice for about 10 years and have only dabbled on the dark side a few times. After realizing how often you find cold tables vs warm or hot tables, I'm seriously considering dark side betting for a trip just to see how I fair.

    I'm thinking of 4 don't bets laying 2x odds on each. Wait for the hand to resolve. I know the house edge is just a tad lower on the don't. After a recent discussion on "volatility" in another thread, I got to thinking about betting with the 7. I also know I won't cash on the monster hands but let's be honest. How often do you see those monsters?

    I figure on a $5 table, I might get in for as much as $90 on a given shooter. We know most hands will only last a few rolls.

    I'm not looking to find some magical sign the table is turning and switching my play back and forth.
     
  2. catfishncwc

    catfishncwc Tourist

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    Craps to me is not a game to make a little money here and there. I am playing for those monster rolls. Though I am not a aggressive bettor. I double my odds on the pass, place the 6 & 8 and normally have at least one come going. I will press my bets once a few numbers are hit. But I wanna wait for the big monster roll and not just play the dark side to make a few less friends in the world.
     
  3. Keyser Soze

    Keyser Soze Low-Roller

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    I mostly play advantage blackjack.

    I like money, so I'm not much of a gambler. When I do gamble, I play craps. And I only play Don't Pass, Don't Come, Lay Max Odds.
     
  4. fadetheseven

    fadetheseven High-Roller

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    how many points and how would you describe the volatility?

    Also, does anyone know if dont bets get rated the same as right side bets?
     
  5. Hogman

    Hogman VIP Whale

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    I am pretty sure that since the HA for Pass is 1.41% and 1.36% for don't pass then they should be the same. I am pretty sure people who play don't lose about the same as the other players. I just is a little slower.
     
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  6. Keyser Soze

    Keyser Soze Low-Roller

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    "Don't pass, don't come, lay odds" strategy can result in massive losses very quickly. Otherwise it's generally a slow, positive grind.

    "Don't pass, don't come, lay odds" is the optimal craps strategy, mathematically speaking.

    Pit critters will rate them the same.
     
  7. fadetheseven

    fadetheseven High-Roller

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    I'm not suggesting that don't betting will lead to more positive outcomes.

    I'm trying to get a sense of how swingy it can be. Playing on the right side with inside place bets and the PL requires several hits just to break even on a single hand. Every once in a while a decent hand will come along and you make back some of your losses.

    I figure since you are playing with the seven, you catch those very common short hands and win a little bit. By limiting the number of don't points to whatever your predetermined level, you limit your exposure to the infrequent monster hand.

    I'm trying to think of ways of stretching play time but not exposing my bankroll to the swinginess of right side betting. While I love cashing in on monster hands, I've learned that they don't happen enough. It's like chasing a royal flush in VP. Hitting a RF is rare occurrence but can bring you back from a long negative streak.
     
  8. MikeOPensacola

    MikeOPensacola VIP Whale

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    I really don't care about making friends at the table, and I don't think wrong bettors are that scorned anyway. I just hate that it is such a long grind to make any serious dough.:peace:
     
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  9. 1BETSY1

    1BETSY1 Tourist

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    I'll lay in the corner and lay the 10 or 4 for 50.00. It is a slow grind, if I hit a couple 7 I will move on to another table or casino because time and greed is not your friend.
     
  10. fadetheseven

    fadetheseven High-Roller

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    Maybe I should ask about a direct comparison. Suppose the right side bettor is doing PL+2x odds and comebets with 2x odds until 4 points. The don't bettor is doing the same but on the dark side. Both have the same bankroll.

    I understand that the house edge is slightly in favor of the dark sider but we all know over short periods like a typical gambling trip variance more often determines your net result.

    I'm trying to understand if both players will experience the same amount of swinginess? Will one go broke more often than the other?

    Maybe I'll just have to bite the bullet and try it out. I'll have to remember to where my flame suit since no one really likes a dark sider.
     
  11. bedaniels

    bedaniels Low-Roller

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    In my experience its best to lay the box numbers (and pay the vig) rather than play the don't pass/come. There are too many 7/11's on the come out rolls at a cold table that eat at your returns. I lay the inside for $30 each plus a $4 vig totaling $124. When the 7 hits you get paid for all four bets on a single roll of the dice if none of the inside bets hit for a $86 profit and $206 returned to the rack, or leave up the lay bets (taking the $90 win) and wait for the 7 to show on the come out roll for another nice win of $90 (minus the $4 vig). Some places rate you for the $124 bet others say the rating is $31, when I argued this with the pit critter (@ Monte Carlo) I was told I only had $31 at risk per roll which is true so that was the rating. If 2 of your bets get knocked down take the other 2 bets down and wait for the next shooter, your vig will be returned to you or change your betting strategy when the table is heating up. If numbers are being hit but no one is making a point lay the point for $150 + $5 vig for a $75-$125 win per shooter depending on the point. I play both ways and take what the table is giving me. If you don't ever play the dark side then your only playing half the game. Good luck, and don't give a crap about what the other players think about your betting strategy, it's your bankroll.
     
  12. donfairplay

    donfairplay Low-Roller

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    Ah, dark side bettors. I was at Bellagio earlier this month...

    A young'ish guy with spiky hair drops $3600 in hundreds onto the table right before my roll. I place my usual $10 minimum bet on the pass line - at 4 AM Bellagio has $10 minimum bet tables that aren't crowded.

    Dark sider drops $600 or so, and backs up with odds. I roll some numbers... point. I fist pump over the $10 + $10 odds I collect, spiky hair is undeterred.

    Then he puts $800 and backs it up. I roll some numbers. point. I fist pump.

    Spiky hair plunks down another $600 or so with odds, but this time I didn't hit my point. Perhaps he was confident because he does something I've not seen in dark side bettors...

    Plunks down around $1000 on the don't, on *his* roll. Points. (naturally, I fist pump over the $30 he made me)

    Takes out his wallet and buys another $1,800 in black chips, throws all of it on the don't.

    Points almost immediately. Leaves the table. Which meant I got to roll again (yay!)

    We've all been in that situation before, but I always thought the don't bettors play the pass line on their rolls. I asked the crew and they said he rolled too good to play the don't pass line.
     
  13. fadetheseven

    fadetheseven High-Roller

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    We've all seen dark side bettors get burned on heaters or a bad series of rolls, but this guy couldnt have expected to play long betting 30% of his buy in on the felt each time the dice rolled. Some of my most memorable moments are when the sole don't bettor gets burned by being impatient.
     
  14. Keyser Soze

    Keyser Soze Low-Roller

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    I quoted that because its worth repeating. :thumbsup:
     
  15. Darreningreenwood

    Darreningreenwood Low-Roller

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    Agreed...though I'm not a fan of a dark sider screaming and cheering when he wins on a seven, and the other 10 players at the table just watched all their chips get raked in by the dealers.

    When I'm playing the don'ts and win, I just collect my chips and keep my eyes on the table for the next round.
     
  16. martay

    martay Tourist

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    I used to play a ton of dark side. The house advantage differences are so slim that you won't notice a difference. What you will notice is that because you are laying the long end of the odds, you need to have lots more chips in play. Also, those 7s and 11s on the come out roll really start to hurt.

    Nothing hurts more in craps than getting all the numbers loaded up, and then watching the shooter pick them off, one at a time, until all your little +EV bets are all dead.

    One minor advantage to the dark side is that if you bet don't come, inexperienced dealers will often forget to take the bet down if the number hits. One or two of those per session can add up, but eventually, the box man catches on.

    I've come to the conclusion that it is just better to play the right way, if you must play. No matter what you do, it is a -EV game, though.
     
  17. Scahom1

    Scahom1 Tourist

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    This is true. There is no greater feeling then having 4-5 numbers with odds on the table, and the next roll is a seven. The mountain of chips that gets returned to you makes everybody at the table stop and stare.

    There is also no worse feeling then watching the shooter pick off every number you had, and THEN seven out right after! :(
     
  18. fadetheseven

    fadetheseven High-Roller

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    If you've spent any time as a come bettor, you've been on the other end of that as well. Load all the bases then the seven rolls.

    I understand the need to have a lot of checks on the table and the potential anxiety it can cause. However, since that 7 can show up 1:6, does that make the dark side less swingy?
     
  19. chess

    chess VIP Whale

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    I dont think ive ever seen someone playigng the darkside cheer lol.... because most of the time the players are looking at them like he is a dead man walking LOL :thumbsup:
     
  20. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    My routine when playing the don'ts is skipping the comeout roll but then playing don't come a few times with double odds. This way you usually aren't rooting 'against' the point number. You're still rooting for the 7, of course. It's a small deal but might change the emotions a bit around the table for those that give the evil eye to the don't bettor.

    An old saw: Want to make money at craps? Find a crowded, quiet craps table and play the don't.
     
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