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Table Games Craps "video" machine with real dice: Random?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Pete Rose's Bookie, Jul 24, 2012.

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  1. Pete Rose's Bookie

    Pete Rose's Bookie Tourist

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    I saw these machines for the first time on a recent trip. There are a pair of large real dice under a clear dome in the middle of the table (like the old Trouble board game for those of us old enough to remember) which bounce around slightly to the audio of an annoying high pitched woman's voice inciting you to press the red button, seemingly a random roll.

    My question: Is this indeed a random roll, or are the dice controlled (I don't want to use the word "magnets", but you know what I mean) by the machine, just like slot machine reels which may seem random, but are indeed predetermined. I couldn't help think that the fall of the dice could be manipulated.

    Anyone have any insight?
     
  2. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

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    You are right to be leery on this one!!!

    It just makes total sense that the casinos would risk millions of dollars in fines and the possible loss of their gaming license (worth tens of millions of dollars in its own right, plus the loss of the ability to make any income)... so they can rig a craps game with oversized dice to bilk you of your $2 wager.
     
  3. jhpa

    jhpa High-Roller

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    You are so right, especially since - for an unfixed game with no expensive staff running it - the house advantage ONLY ranges from 1 to 16%.
     
  4. Pete Rose's Bookie

    Pete Rose's Bookie Tourist

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    I understand what you're saying about manipulating a $2 bet, but like I mentioned with the slot machines, those reel spins are far from random, and those are only pennies.

    I'm not suggesting that the machines sniff out the best way to optimally take money, but rather that the rolls are perhaps predermined by a set pattern in order for the casino to take a certain percentage.

    For instance, I guarantee that those horses in the old mechanical machines are not running an actual random race.
     
  5. earth-3

    earth-3 High-Roller

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    Interaction between people is an important element in gaming. This includes dealers and pit crews. Take this out of the game and it becomes another mechanical/electronic slot machine. All the dice and card games are not nearly as much fun when you are playing a machine, even if random with identical odds. I think this is one of the reasons why poker took off in popularity, even though you have VP machines everywhere.
     
  6. Pete Rose's Bookie

    Pete Rose's Bookie Tourist

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    Agreed.

    The people that I saw playing these machines were far from experienced craps players and didn't seem to play more than a handful of rolls. Mostly field bets too...go figure. :rolleyes2:
     
  7. aliasyoshi

    aliasyoshi Low-Roller

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    I have played this game numerous times while in Vegas and I am basically an expert craps player. They are random. I mean, sure, you could sit there for days on end and keep track of the bounces and the top numbers that are up when the button is pushed versus what numbers actually are rolled. But it isn't worth it. I have had runs where I lose and runs where I win. I enjoy it.

    EDIT: And by, "expert", I mean I know the game and have played it a lot. Not that I always win or play for a living. :)
     
  8. Wazza

    Wazza Tourist

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    My advice would be to avoid these. On my first roll the dice jammed and it took 25 mins for someone to fix it so I could get my cash back. The pits are sooooo much more fun imho!
     
  9. zerofan

    zerofan VIP Whale

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    Never tried the craps machine, but they have a roulette version with the same idea.

    It was a fun game and you didnt have to reach over an entire table to place your bets every spin.
     
  10. DonD

    DonD Super Moderator

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    My wife played one in Laughlin and loved it. I'll try it the next the I see one.
     
  11. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    Wrong. Reel spins on slot machines are indistinguishable from random. No algorithm can predict the next result (i.e. the next one is random), mainly because the random 'sequence' of the PRNG is running even when you aren't hitting the button.

    The rolls in the craps machine are NOT predetermined in any way. The dice in the 'Boggle' dome are simply physical dice being bounced around. There is no programming behind it.
     
  12. jrinct1

    jrinct1 VIP Whale

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    I dont care if they are random. i wouldnt play them if I was GIVEN the money. Dont trust them.
     
  13. C0usineddie

    C0usineddie VIP Whale

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    It seems to me that you can have more control over the dice with these machines.
     
  14. tacallian

    tacallian Low-Roller

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    Occam's Razor gents and ladies.

    Why rig a game that is already in your favor? Of course they wouldn't. As for slot machines and how they work, it has to do with the reels and not the number generator. Each reel if stretched out into a straight vertical line may contain around 50 symbols, some repeats of each other. It doesn't need to be rigged or pay on a set pattern because mathematical probability will win out in the long run. Tis simply the way it is.
     
  15. Bo333

    Bo333 VIP Whale

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    To sum this up an other way. They want it as random as possible, because the math is on their side. If it's completely random they win money, surprise!
     
  16. DonD

    DonD Super Moderator

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    They do want things as random as possible. If there's a bias in anyway, they will get killed by sharp players that are always on the lookout for an advantage.
     
  17. theotherone

    theotherone Low-Roller

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    If I ever see one of these machines I want to bet the dark side only. Seems the best way to go.

    That is unless I see a way to provide some 'control' over the dice but I don't see how that would Be possible.
     
  18. jrinct1

    jrinct1 VIP Whale

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    With all do respect.PROVE IT!!Cant see how that can happen.
     
  19. jrinct1

    jrinct1 VIP Whale

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    AGAIN can this be proven. I cant take this at face value. If i am naieve' say so ( or am Ijust plain dumb).
     
  20. jhpa

    jhpa High-Roller

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    You may be naive - I do not pre-suppose you to be dumb.

    The proof is in the math.


    Let me make it simple for you. Let say we have a game of flip the coin. You call heads or tails and I flip a coin. You have an equal chance of winning and losing. If we bet a dollar and you win, I pay you a dollar. If you lose, I take your dollar. Easy, right?

    But let's say that I change the rule. If you lose, you pay me a dollar. If you win, I pay you 95 cents. This 5 cents difference is called the HOUSE ADVANTAGE. It is the difference between what you DO get paid for a winning bet versus what you SHOULD get paid for a winning bet. Over the course of many many flips, you will lose more money than you win. Yes, you might win 10 in row or 30 out of 50. But after a million flips, you will guess wrong half of the time and lose $500,000 and guess right half of the time and win $475,000. You will have lost $25,000 and I would have won $25,000 It is a mathematical certainly - as long as the flip of the coin is a random event and will randomely result in heads or tails. In the long run this is proven.

    (For stat geeks out there, I know that it will not be exactly 500,000 out of a million. It probably has a 99.99% chance that it will be between 490,000 and 510,000. But the house will always construct the house advantage to be sufficient to cover any variation)

    Now I can rig my flipper so that, once I know how you bet, I make the opposite result happen frequently. But why would I do that....if I did, my reputation would be shot and nobody would bet against me. Plus, the flipper police would throw me in jail and take away my flippin license. And if I just play by the rules that include a HOUSE ADVANTAGE, I am guarenteed to make money on the bet so why cshould I cheat?

    The reason a casino makes money is because every bet in the casino has a house advantage. In craps, in the long run over thousands of rolls that might happen over the course of a day at a casino, the distribution of results will be predictable and according to the probablity chart: One out of 36 rolls will be a 12. 1 out of 6 rolls will be a seven. This is mathematically provable.

    But when you bet on the 12 to be rolled, and you are right, you win 30 to one instead of 36 to 1. When you bet that a seven will be rolled, you win four to one instead of six to one. This is fact. I will not go into the math for every bet in craps, but trust me that every bet on the craps table felt has a house advantage. (Let's not quibble about the odds - I know these are break even bets, but you can only bet them along with a pass or come bet which has a house advantage)

    So as long as the bets in a casino are structured with a house advantage (and they all are) , and as long as the results are random, the casino will make money.

    Someone once said: Casinos do not make money because players lose. Casinos make money because - when players win - they get paid less than they should get paid.
     
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