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Table Games Craps Strategy

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Ortho1207, Feb 23, 2015.

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  1. Ortho1207

    Ortho1207 Tourist

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    I don't understand in almost every post I have seen about Craps strategy people recommend a pass line bet with 2-3 time odds. If you are not going to take full odds on your pass line, then why even post a pass line bet. If you want to throw the dice and you are playing at a $10 table with $200, I can see this as being valid only because you want to shoot. Any other time you get better odds placing a bet at any level. Also, if you are playing for $10-15 per bet, I would still recommend buying the 4 and 10 at $20 for the odds. 2:1 less $1 vs 9:5. Often when I play at $10-15 tables, I will see people make come bets with low odds or no odds. Same argument applies. I know years ago(more than a decade) many of the Vegas casinos gave better odds than 3,4,5 so the pass line and come bets made more sense. It doesn't make sense anymore. Someone explain to me where my math is missing. I love the game and I am always open to improving my odds.
     
  2. dannyocean

    dannyocean High-Roller

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    My hunch is that folks who are playing the pass line but aren't putting down full odds are operating with a lower bankroll or have a lower threshold for swings/losses. Even on a $10 table, a $50 odds bet puts you back $60 if you lose. I can imagine plenty of players content to simply make a $10 pass line bet with $10 or $20 odds to keep their bankroll longer and still play the bet with a lower house edge. That's my hunch for one reason, anyway.
     
  3. PayTriple

    PayTriple The Cucumber King

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    If sevens are frequent, so that point-seven-out occur back to back to back (haven't we all seen this?), then making a Pass line bet without odds followed by a Come bet without odds will minimize your losses. In fact, you will break even on a PSO.
    My point (pardon the pun) is that depending on how the table is "behaving", it can be advantageous to bet without taking full odds. And when the table gets hot, then press up the odds to the max!
     
  4. Bo333

    Bo333 VIP Whale

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    You are correct the bigger the odds bet the less of the house advantage.
    But it can be a rather large bet ratio given a person's bankroll, so people may not want to risk that much money as they can't handle the larger variance.

    I did test this once empirically over a few thousand random hands and a few thousand influenced hands. In all cases the bet with max odds came out ahead of someone playing 2x odds. Of course the variance is higher for the max odds better so you need a bigger bankroll.
    I even did the empirical test with a progressive odds bet and the max odds bet still came out ahead.
    So it seem math wins again :Þ
    (But it was nice to see it empirically.)

    A lot of people can only handle a smaller variance game which is why you don't see people minimizing the house advantage on lots of bets (and games).
    Going to zero fast is never much fun, but going there slowly can make it seem like you had good entertainment value.
     
  5. Packer

    Packer VIP Whale

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    Couple reply's.....


    If you are not going to take full odds on your pass line, then why even post a pass line bet.

    because the pass line wins at a 49.3% rate


    If you want to throw the dice and you are playing at a $10 table with $200, I can see this as being valid only because you want to shoot. Any other time you get better odds placing a bet at any level.

    Better odds?
    I disagree with you on this what is your definition of *better odds* the pass line, basically the 4 line bets win at a 49.3% rate the place 6&8 win at a 45.45% rate
    the Field bet wins at 44.44% the place 5&9 at 40% place 4&10 and Buy 4&10 at only 33.33% you want to figure in the win rate with the net win?
    Now that leads you to the concept of expected value from there we can get the house edge I say do not go there play the way that makes it more fun for you just playing craps should be fun IF you do not have fun while you are losing in my opinion playing craps is not for you but that is OK
    so just have fun.
     
  6. UKFanatic

    UKFanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    Pretty simple explanation: they don't want to wager as much. I have a friend that only bets the line at craps and no odds or anything else. And she loves it. she gets to hang out, gamble, get free drinks, and cheer when she wins
     
  7. vsop

    vsop Low-Roller

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    Nothing wrong with your math...I believe people are not betting the max odds, primarily due to limited bankrolls, though some players with the $$$ are just not tuned into the odds....My memory says that 10+ years ago many casinos were a max 2X odds, with the exception of possibly the DT casinos....then gradually the Strip casinos all adopted the 3x4x5x odds.....IMO, pass line and come bets with max odds only makes sense when the table has min. $1 bet, with 10x odds or better....ala Casino Royale once upon a time....
     
  8. klawrey

    klawrey High-Roller

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    Simply don't want to or cannot afford to put max odds. $30-50 on a $10 pass line is a lot of you have a smaller bankroll. Yes playing more on the odds reduces edge but even at 2x odds on the pass you have better odds than any place or buy on bets resolved.

    Pass line is 1.41% on bets made and resolved.
    Buy the 4 is 1.19% on bets made but 4.76% on bets resolved.

    So less variance on resolved bets and you get to shoot which makes the game much more fun. I agree you should take odds for as much as possible or you're comfortable.

    In the end it's all about fun. If we were worried about the house edge we'd all play the dark side because technically the house edge is better there too.
     
  9. Earl

    Earl Tourist

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    The only thing affected is the variance with the odds bet. Consider the $10 pass line bet, no odds, with a 6 or 8 being the point.

    No odds: pass line wins 5/11 times. Loses 6-11 times. Expected value is (5/11)*(10) - (6/11)*(10)= -10/11

    Full odds: pass line wins 5/11 times but wins 70. Loses 6/11 times but loses 60. Expected value is (5/11)*(70) - (6/11)*(60)= -10/11

    Same expected value over long run. The only difference is variance (size of the swings)

    Taking full odds or not is simply a myth of how to minimize house edge. Yes it minimizes the house edge, but you are risking more. Therefore it isn't necesarily better.

    Having said that, it DOES matter if you are at a $10 table and bet $50 on pass line with no odds. It would theoretically be better to play $10 pass and full odds. But that doesn't win you as much if the 7 and 11 are coming up on the come out roll, but you win significantly more win shooters are hitting points.

    Just be two cents worth of math
     
  10. klawrey

    klawrey High-Roller

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    I don't know if the $50 you mentioned was regarding my post or not. But felt I should clarify. I meant that at a $10 table when you play $10 on the pass it is often too much to put $30-50 on your odds bet if you had a smaller bank roll.

    I do agree with your math though that all the bigger odds will do is create more variance. The fractions of percentage points it moves the edge is minimal.
     
  11. scc31

    scc31 Low-Roller

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    A lot of you are saying take the full odd. What does that mean? Sorry for the ignorance, I do not play craps. I know the rules and what not but do not know the detailed logistics.
     
  12. klawrey

    klawrey High-Roller

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    Without getting to in depth, when you play the pass line bet and a point is set you are allowed to place odds bets behind the pass line at a rate of 3,4,5x depending on what the point is. This is the only bet I'm aware of in the casino that has 0 house edge and also by playing more on your odds you lower the overall edge. Playing full odds would be either 3,4,5x depending on the point, anything less would be what the OP brought up and mention he did not know why anyone would do.
     
  13. UKFanatic

    UKFanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    That means making the maximum odds bet once a point is established. There is no house edge on the odds bet, so it is one of the best you can make in the casino. Different casinos have different rules on the size of the odds bet you are allowed to make. Most on the Strip, however, have 3x4x5x odds, which means you can make an odds wager three times your line bet if the point is 4 or 10, four times your line bet if the point is 5 or 9, and five times your line bet if the point is 6 or 8.

    Hope that helps :thumbsup:
     
  14. Earl

    Earl Tourist

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    No that was not necessarily directed towards you. Yes bankroll management is the main reason for people not taking odds or full odds. Playing above table minimum with no odds is a poor play but can have its perks if there are lots of come out roll winners as opposed to points being hit
     
  15. klawrey

    klawrey High-Roller

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    No worries! Just did not know and thought I could better clarify my post. :beer:
     
  16. Landshark

    Landshark Way into it...

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    Man, can't wait to get on the dice table in 19 days!
     
  17. Rush

    Rush High-Roller

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    "Free odds" has been kicked to death since its inception. Pundits will tell you that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, because there is no house edge. The casinos don't offer it to be your friend. They offer it to get your money faster......pure and simple.

    Let's use the Strip for our example, as most people have a boner for playing on the Strip. You're lucky to find a $10 table there, yet we see thread after thread with guys begging to find $5 or lower tables. Guess what? This isn't 1964. So, you KNOW you are already short banked for a game on the Strip, but you're going to play anyway.

    Now, you slide up to a $10 table, and how much money do you hand in to the box? $2,000? $5,000? Not even close! You peel off a couple, maybe five hundred TOPS! Even if you are the odd ball at the table who buys in for a decent amount, do yourself a favor next time, and watch how many guys buy in for less than five hundy at a $10, $15, or even $25 table! It's suicide.

    So, here you stand. $10 pass line wager, and a 6 is the point. You're playing at a 3/4/5 house, so now you're shaking like a Georgia hound shitting peach pits, as you put two greens behind your two reds. Make a $10 Come bet, because that's what all the cool kids are doing, and a 5 comes calling. $40 on odds, and a hard swallow that makes your fucking eyes water a little. At a $5 table, you'd make another Come bet, but here, you don't. You just can't. You look in your rail and see that $300 you bought in for, is over 1/3 on the table, and the cocktail girl hasn't even started her shift, let alone taken your order. It doesn't sound like a fun day, but it happens over and over again.

    On the other hand, that short bank could have a little more "fun" if they played $10-$12 place bets at that table, and pressed them $5-6 here and there.


    ..........One man's opinion.
     
  18. Breeze147

    Breeze147 Button Man

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    Bingo, we have a winner!. Instead of the Come Bet, as per the example, Place the 6, 8 and 9 for $34. Press every 3rd hit or so. It's a helluva lot more fun than seeing your $200 bankroll disappear on a couple of Big Reds.
     
  19. Its Only Money

    Its Only Money Low-Roller

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    I usually start by playing pass line at minimum with 3xs odds and then place the inside numbers at the min too. Then depending how things go I either go to across with full odds or just pass line with 2xs odds and 6 and 8. I've become more aggressive in pressing when the table heats up too. I probably buy in for too small of amount initially, but we all hope that the heater is coming right when we get to the table. That doesn't mean I'm not willing to go into my pocket for a few more buy-ins at each session.

    Next Thursday can't get here soon enough!
     
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  20. Sipsey

    Sipsey Tourist

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    Most people are underfunded at the craps table. For a $5 table, you should be buying in for at least $800. I have never come close to that. I prefer $2 or $3 tables, but I doubt there are any left. Last time I was downtown, I saw only $5 and up. On the strip, you can forget it most times. You might find $5, but you will probably have to look more than one place. Maybe they still have it at Casino Royale.

    So, I buy in for $100 or so and hope to hit a hot streak. It usually doesn't happen, but I have limited my losses that way. If I bought in for 1K and lost it all, it would probably be the last time I ever got to play! :nono:
     
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