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Table Games Craps question - leaving come bet odds working

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Ty Webb Jr., May 1, 2012.

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  1. Ty Webb Jr.

    Ty Webb Jr. Tourist

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    I'm starting to get a little more into craps and on my recent trip I played more of it and got more comfortable, but I'm still very much a novice. I will do pass line w/2x odds, then two come bets w/2x odds, replace any come bet that hits with another on the next roll and press the odds if I hit a couple of times. Pretty basic stuff.

    Here's what confused me and maybe I'm making a mistake so I’m looking for some input. When I have the come bets w/odds on the table and the pass line number is hit I leave the odds working on the come bets on the next come out roll. The dealers keep telling me it is aggressive to do so. I understand that if a 7 is rolled I will lose the come bet and the odds bet when I do this instead of just losing the come bet and getting my odds back.

    My logic (which may be flawed) goes like this: for a come bet to resolve positively a number must be rolled, then rolled again before a 7 appears – so two occurrences of a come bet number before the more likely 7. If I don’t leave the odds working and one of the come bet numbers is rolled I miss out on the benefit of come betting – being paid true odds on the number and now this number must be rolled again for me to win what is now my new pass line bet w/odds – so three occurrences before the more likely 7. In this case all I have won is the original come bet, paid at the less than optimal odds of 1-1, and I have missed out on the reason for come betting vs. place betting. If I leave the odds working and a 7 is rolled, I lose everything, but how is this any different on a new come out roll compared to any other toss of the dice?

    I hope I have explained this properly to get an answer to the question: Am I making a terrible mistake?
     
  2. thecarve

    thecarve Misanthrope

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    It isn’t. You’re absolutely correct – there is no reason why turning off the bets during a come out is any better or worse or smarter or dumber….than turning them off during any other roll.

    I think it is just the custom. Maybe people like to cheer for a seven on the come out and don’t want to have to “root against” one of their other bets…I dunno?
     
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  3. larryg

    larryg Low-Roller

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    You're right. If you're going to have odds on your bet (and you should), there's no reason to turn off the odds at any time -- it just so happens that it isn't traditional. I sometimes leave odds on, but only when the table is nearly empty; I have pity on the dealers, and don't want to make their lives more complicated.

    When the house advantage is specified for various bets, the figure almost always assumes you will in fact leave the odds working. If not, the percentage house advantage increases. Of course, the expected dollar loss doesn't change either way, since the odds bet has a zero house advantage.

    edited to say: thecarve, you beat me to it!
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2012
  4. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    The only difference working vs not working is that when you turn them off on the come out roll, it's just one roll you're not exposed to. Some people just prefer that.

    If your session played out exactly to the probabilities, your session would last a little longer with them turned off.
     
  5. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    the main reason is that if you have a passline bet out there and a come bet with odds on the comeout and hit 7, you win your passline, but lose the come+odds and you lost more than you won. nobody wants to lose more than they win on a victory. your best bet if you want to keep your come+odds active on the come out is not to play another passline bet as at that point you're just playing against yourself.
     
  6. LV_Bound

    LV_Bound VIP Whale

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    I am sure this plays a HUGE part. I see people playing with the dice on the come out roll trying to hit the 7 and all the table is cheering for the 7.

    There is no wrong way to play craps. Wait, I mean no wrong way, not wrong way. Oh wait that sounds wrong too. :goofy:
     
  7. larryg

    larryg Low-Roller

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    Sorry, but that's not correct -- if the session played out exactly to the probabilities, your session would last EXACTLY as long either way. That's because you can't turn off the come bet -- only the odds, and in the long term, there's zero loss on the odds.
     
  8. wookie

    wookie Low-Roller

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    Great question, I never though about it. Thanks for asking and thanks for the answers.

    Next time I play at an empty table I'm going to keep the odd working.
     
  9. theotherone

    theotherone Low-Roller

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    Seems to be the biggest part of it. Almost like its taboo to keep them working. I can see why you'd want to keep them on but there's no way I could. Same with hardways.
     
  10. Ty Webb Jr.

    Ty Webb Jr. Tourist

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    This is all good stuff, thanks for the replies.


    Okay, I understand the points above but if you have a come betting philosophy wouldn't you be rooting for another point to be established so you can put odds on it and not rooting for a simple 1-1 payout on a 7? Also, if I have two come bets out w/odds, turn the odds "off" on a new come out roll, and it's a 7, I still lose more than I win (lose two come bets, win one passline bet), so I'm still not rooting for a 7.

    Finally, and this might be a stretch, but is it the casino's "tradition" to turn the odds off since this is a bet with no HA? Isn't this just a way to disadvantage the bettor (i.e. your point hit, but the house is only paying out a bet that is to their advantage)?

    I appreciate the discussion; the quesstion and answers on this board have helped me be a little more informed about the games I'm interested in playing.
     
  11. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    i agree with that, but if you're not rooting to win your passline bet with a 7, you're rooting against the most favorable outcome. the easiest way to win betting the pass is to hit the 7. it's much harder to hit a point than it is just to roll a 7 the first time. so why not just play come bets exclusively and not worry about the passline bet at all? then you can keep your odds on on the come out and not have a competing bet. then place another come bet (if you want) after the point is established. that way you're never rooting against yourself.
     
  12. Ty Webb Jr.

    Ty Webb Jr. Tourist

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    So I read this and thought "A-ha! There's my novice mistake." But I keep thinking, a come bet is essentially just another passline bet after the come out roll, but I'm not rooting for a 7 (which would be the dreaded point-seven out to the rest of the table, clearly a no-no to cheer for this result), even though for me that would be the easiest way to win (as you correctly state about passline bets).

    I guess my philosophy would be described as one that de-values winning a passline bet on the come out roll with a 7 and prefers to set numbers and place odds. Hmmm, something feels wrong about this.

    Dammit, I thought I had this game figured out...:grrr:
     
  13. thecarve

    thecarve Misanthrope

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    You don’t have to turn your bets off, Ty. This isn’t Russia. Is this Russia?

    Seriously though, I’m with you re: the come out roll. I never want to see a seven. Heck the pass line bet is just the price of admission for playing the odds, IMO. In fact, when I first came on to this site a few years ago I asked a very similar question of the board (the consensus then was the same as it is now). These days, I just go with the flow and let the boys turn off my bets. It’s easier that way.

    Plus, now I never have to wish bankruptcy on the guy who tries to high five me when the seven comes out and I’ve got three come bets with full odds on the table. :grrr:
     
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  14. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    No, that doesn't make sense. Every time you place a come bet, you ARE rooting for THAT bet to win with a 7/11, so you are playing against yourself in a way, as your other come bets with odds will lose on the 7. Just skipping the passline doesn't change that situation if you make more than one come bet.

    I like to tell them to leave my odds on all the time, because I want the chance to win that more than 1:1 payoff on the odds on every roll. It isn't like he has a better chance to roll a 7 just because it's a comeout roll.

    Also, a couple people in the thread seemed to say it backwards. The default condition is the odds ARE turned off on a new comeout roll. So you have to take positive action to turn them on (which is a bit more work for the dealers). There is no reason to worry about doing this at a full table; the dealers know how to do it. It's probably best to inform them you want them on all the time, every roll, and they won't have to ask on every comeout roll.

    An old adage: "The last come bet is always a winner...." It's a little consolation payoff. when he 7s out if you are making repeating come bets.
     
  15. makikiboy

    makikiboy VIP Whale

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    I'm a little confused on what you are saying.

    many craps players don't play all come bets (with pass line bets) and odds because on a come out roll, if a 7 is rolled you lose all your come bets but not their odds unless you want them working (then you lose all come bets and odds). Then you have to start all over trying to fill the table with come bets.

    Many of us mix our game, we play the pass line and a come bet or two and odds for all and place some bets, usually the 6 and 8. While place bet odds aren't as good as the pass and come odds you also have to realize, with pass and come bets you need to roll the number twice to win, first to set that pass or come point and then again to win your bet. With place bets you only need to hit the number once to win.

    BTW, on the come out roll many bets are turned off, the odds on the come bets, the place bets and the hard ways. While you can tell them that your bets are working many just leave them off on the come out roll. I hope falconRob or someone can explain the logic of having those bets turned off on the come out roll but having those bets off on the come out roll is normal SOP unless you say otherwise.

    we all wish that a 7 is never thrown when we play but unfortunately it will happen eventually.

    I know that the dice is random but I usually bet according to the shooter's tendencies. For instance if a shooter is hitting certain numbers consistently I would increase only those bets and only increase the others if he hits them more than a couple of times. Same with the hard ways, I've seen a shooter throw a number of hard eights or sixes before he crapped out. Some people play the hard ways and parlay their bets. I saw someone throw the hard eight 5 times before he crapped out. Unbelievable but that's what can happen in a game of chance.
     
  16. Old Salty

    Old Salty Tourist

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    And be careful if a precision shooter has the dice. Most of them are place betters and they will set for and try to hit the big red on the come out. (I never say that number that ends the hand). Let's all make it go away permanently by ignoring it's existence!
     
  17. jhpa

    jhpa High-Roller

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    Yes - by all means - everyone knows that those "precision shooters" have a way of defying the laws of physics and gravity by determining how the dice will land after throwning them 15 feet onto a bouncy surface.

    Seriously, bet like every roll is a random outcome - becasue it is.
     
  18. Old Salty

    Old Salty Tourist

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    Notice I said "Precision Shooter" not "Chicken Feeder". I have been at the table with some of the best precision shooters in the world. If you ever happen to see one in action, you will become a believer and gain some much needed education.
     
  19. jhpa

    jhpa High-Roller

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    And how exactly will you know that the results are due to "precision" shooting versus normal variance?
    The longest roll on record - over 4 hours - was not a "precision shooter". It was a woman who rarely plays the game.
    I have seen hundreds of people set the dice carefully and throw in a precise manner who seven out immediately.
    My best roll, I threw for over just less than an hour. I was "setting the dice" as a matter of superstition with the threes in a V. It might have looked to somethat I was a "precision Shooter". Another time I rolled for over 30 minutes making all six numbers of a firebet and I was just doing the old chuck and duck.

    Believers are not educated by anecdotes or short term outcomes. Believe in the math, the physics and the logic.
     
  20. Electroguy563

    Electroguy563 Over-Fried Gambler

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    My last trip this precision shooter rolled for close to an hour and made the table players a lot of money. When he finally sevened-out we passed the dice to him and he promptly sevened-out after setting the point.

    The table started getting choppy and he shortly got the dice again. He set the point and promptly sevened-out.

    Then I got the dice and rolled for 54 minutes every once in a while setting it to the flying V just to mix it up. Most of the time it was just chuck and duck. Made some serious money.

    After I sevened-out they passed the dice to me again and I set the point, rolled two other numbers then sevened-out.

    Yep. All random. But it's fun and doesn't hurt to set the dice if you "feel" it!!
     
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