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Table Games Craps - making odds bets and place bets

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by makikiboy, Jun 29, 2015.

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  1. makikiboy

    makikiboy VIP Whale

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    I was in another thread with someone who doesn't understand the concepts of odds bets and place bets. He makes black chip pass and come bets but doesn't back them up with odds. Not sure, I think he may be playing for ratings or comps but then doesn't realize what odds bets are for and that he is increasing the house advantage by not making odds bets.

    I'm hoping that someone here can explain what the odds bets (and place bets) are and how making odds bets will help give him a better advantage over the house and are better financially.

    If you were making $100 pass and come bets, how would you split up that amount into pass/come and odds bets?

    (or am I just wasting my time trying to explain the concept?)
     
  2. BayouBengal

    BayouBengal VIP Whale

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    http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/basics/#toc-DefiningtheHouseEdge

    If I wanted to bet $100, I would bet $15 on the pass and max odds which on a 3-4-5 table is a total of $90 when the point is 6 or 8. That brings the house edge down to about 0.3%. If you bet only pass line it's 1.41% edge. Just multiply that by the average bet and that right there proves how much less you'd lose in the long run by going max odds. I typically tell people to be the min on the pass/don't pass and then bet as much in odds as their bankroll allows. Single odds is better than nothing.
     
  3. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    You'll never convince him about odds on the pass line because you can't explain away winning $100 (vs less) when the 7 comes up on the come out roll.

    The come bets are the easiest, because they pay even money.

    So you tell him if his come bet is $100, and 6 is the point, if it hits he wins $100
    If his come bet is $25 and 6 is the point and he puts $75 in odds, he wins $115.

    If the point was 4 and it was made, he'd win $100
    If the point was 4 and he had $25 come bet and $75 odds, he'd win $175

    (He'll probably argue that if he does that, he's giving up $75 in "insurance" against a 7 while the bet is in the come box, and he isn't wrong).

    It's really not worth the energy.
     
  4. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Yeah, you aren't wrong but good luck convincing him.

    Remember, the same math that says play full odds also resoundingly says "don't play craps (or any other casino game) at all".

    He is giving up long term expected value in order to have a better result when shooters keep setting points and 7'ing out very quickly.

    That is mathematically unsound by psychologically unsurprising. Nothing like backing a pass bet with odds (and this guy would still have a lot out there) and having it immediately washed away. This guy hedges that pain, insuring he gets his money back if it happens right away, and half back on the next roll. Not much different than someone who can't bring himself to split 8s against a 10, or hit 12 against a 2, etc.
     
  5. TIMSPEED

    TIMSPEED !địt mẹ!

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    Yup! "Wizard Of Odds" (Mike Shackleford) gives the math for craps..but firmly stands that he doesn't play the game himself...so how "good" of a bet can it be? LOL
     
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  6. mrem3200

    mrem3200 High-Roller

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    Probably this ^^^^. I don't play 6:5 BJ or roulette (because of the high house edge) but I make hard way bets knowing full well that they are stupid bets. If someone tried to tell me I shouldn't, I would politely tell them to mind their own business. Let him play how he wants to. From a practical/mathematical perspective none of us should be gambling.
     
  7. Electroguy563

    Electroguy563 Over-Fried Gambler

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    Well, it's quite possible that the person isn't aware of the odds concept of passline and come. So if we share this concept and he still wants to play the other way, that's all we can do. Main thing is that he knows of the other ways to bet.
     
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  8. KRG

    KRG Tourist

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    Well, I'm the person in question and I not only do I understand the concept of odds, but I am also fully capable of changing my mind when faced with new information. Gee, what a cynical bunch we've got here. :rolleyes2:

    The big issue with me is that there is only so much money I'm willing to put on the table at any given time. So, if I have a bunch of odds bets out with 3X 4X 5X odds, that adds up pretty quickly. Once I've backed up the place bet with full odds the most I'm willing to back up my come bets with is 2X and then only put out 2 of them. The rest of the numbers I'll cover with place (or buy in the case of 4 and 10) bets, so they're all covered.

    And, for the record, I do hit 12s against 12s and 13s. I'm not optimistic about it working out for me, but I do it nonetheless.
     
  9. PayTriple

    PayTriple The Cucumber King

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    Just play the way you want to play.
    If people really cared about minimizing the house advantage, they would play Don't pass with full odds.
    But most don't.
     
  10. makikiboy

    makikiboy VIP Whale

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    Yup, actually there is no real "right" way or "wrong way" to play and everyone plays their own game so good luck with your playing. I seldom play more than single or 2x odds (unless I'm on a hot table). I do bet the hard ways but I notice that some shooters have a tendency to hit certain hard ways so after a couple I will put down a hard way bet.

    Anyway, as long as you have fun you can play craps, bj and everything else any which way you want so enjoy!
     
  11. vsop

    vsop Low-Roller

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    You don't necessarily have to put more money at risk by backing up your come bets with max odds....if, you want to put at risk, $100 total per number, instead of a flat bet of $100 on the come (or pass line) with no odds...you could bet $20 come (or pass line) bet and back it up with $80 odds ($100 total)....see post #3....
     
  12. aa0154

    aa0154 Tourist

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    First, play which ever way you have the most fun. I enjoy a field bet from time to time myself...

    What people are discussing is that you can still limit yourself to $100 per number, but a pass/come bet with odds that equals your $100, will pay you more than just the 1/1 that pass/come payout.
     
  13. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Not cynical about your ability to change your mind.

    Cynical that any information we could give would make you change your mind.
     
  14. swimjim10

    swimjim10 Low-Roller

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    Please at least have a look at wizardofodds.com if you're new to gambling and intend to gamble... it's a great resource!
     
  15. DickTater

    DickTater Low-Roller

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    OK, here is what I don't understand: Makiki says you put a $100 on pass and $100 on come with no odds. You then say you place or buy the rest of the numbers. It seems to me that you should go with Makiki to his favorite joint, Main street Station, and take full advantage of their 20X odds. Pass line or come $5 and $100 odds on a 6 or 8 will pay $125. Same bet on 5 or 9 will pay $155. Same bet on 4 or 10 will pay $205. No odds means your $100 pass or come will only pay $100 on any number. You say you don't want to put more money out, but this doesn't put more money on the table, it just allocates your money differently. taking odds on a pass or come bet doesn't mean you would have to do anything differently regarding placing or buying other numbers.
     
  16. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    I guarantee the first time he puts $25 on the pass line instead of $100, the shooter will throw 4 sevens in a row. :evillaugh
     
  17. KRG

    KRG Tourist

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    Don't be silly, the shooter will wait until I have all my bets out before throwing a 7. THAT, they'll do 4 times in a row.
     
  18. Electroguy563

    Electroguy563 Over-Fried Gambler

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    And this is why everyone should play the way they want. Odds bets are options, not rules of the game. When there are players who are unaware of this option is when we all should share this knowledge with them.

    After that it's up to them if they want to play that way or not. Either way is fine. :beer:
     
    Going to Hawaii's 9th Island!!
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  19. makikiboy

    makikiboy VIP Whale

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    Isn't that how murphy's law works? Yes, I feel the same way sometimes, when you have all your bets on all the numbers is when the dreaded..... comes out. As if it tantalizes you to put more money down before it takes it away from you, lol.





    I agree, we gave our advice and it will be up to a player to decide how he wants to play the game. It's not our money so a player can bet however he wants.

    nuff said, moving on to the next topic.... (lol).
     
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