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Table Games Craps Do Your Homework / It's Not Fun But Neither Is Losing

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Da_Nit, Mar 6, 2015.

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  1. Da_Nit

    Da_Nit Low-Roller

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    I'm sure it's been posted before but I would recommend to anyone that's thinking about putting up there hard earned dollars on any game of chance to first go to the Wizard of Odds site to read up and become familiar with the particular game you intend to play.

    For example for any craps players or potential craps players I highly reccommend checking out his site. He breaks down the numbers and will give you advice quite contradictory to what most people do when they roll up to a craps table. It may make the game less fun for some but losing money isn't fun either. To some extent I'm glad most people don't do there homework if everyone did casinos wouldn't offer games like craps.

    Link on craps house edges and explains all the different bets:

    http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/basics/#toc-TheOdds

    Link from Wizard of Odds that has instructional videos with a very "gifted" assistant, just wish they short sticked a bit more:

    http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/
     
  2. La$Vega$

    La$Vega$ Low-Roller

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    His site is pretty succinct.
    One of the best 4 sure for statistics.

    Robert Flatt (crapsschool) berates the Wizzard's Site
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2015
  3. Ben Jammin

    Ben Jammin VIP Whale

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    The casinos have been test marketing those electronic craps machines doing research to see if people will play them. I'm sure the corporate bean counters would love to figure out a way to beat you out of more money. I don't foresee a changing of the odds as a viable money grabbing technique, however there are certain things they can do to increase the house take.

    I don't think Craps wil go away any time soon as it is a very popular game. Think about how much it takes to run a Craps table, with two dealers, a stick man and a box man as well as a pit boss overseeing the game while security is looking for cheats and rail birds.

    You may notice the words 30 to or 30 for 1, or 15 for 1 vs 15 to 1 on some hard way bets. 30 for 1 means I'll give you back 30 for your , and 30 to 1 means I'll give you back 30 next to your 1 for a total of 31 units vs 30 take away 1.

    Vegas has the best odds available to the player bar none, but that requires skill and knowledge of the game, money management, and discipline.

    Winning is everything. Minimizing my losses while increasing my chances of coming home ahead is my goal.
     
  4. TIMSPEED

    TIMSPEED !địt mẹ!

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    Why would they need to? With HE from 2% all the way up to 16%, and a FAST pace...there's no real need to change anything...it's a huge casino moneymaker.

    Just let me know the next time you see a FULL table with everyone only paying PL + Max odds with NO OTHER BETS...
     
    Palace Tower Suite!
  5. PayTriple

    PayTriple The Cucumber King

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    Hey Ben, you offer good advice on craps. Just out of curiosity, how do you play craps?
     
  6. FXT

    FXT VIP Whale

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    You could play DP/DC with odds and get killed on a big roll. You could also play PL/Come and get killed by psos. I tend to follow more of the table flow now. Sometimes I go heavy on the center and other times i play the good or dark side depending on what seems to be doing better. I think having 1 strict way to play really kills you at the craps table. Atleast that's been my experience.
     
  7. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    I've posted this before on similar topics. The problem with this logic is that every game in the casino is a negative EV game unless you're cheating or if you're counting cards or happen to find a dive casino that still has 100%+ VP.

    It's funny to me when someone playing a negative EV game tries to thumb their nose at another gambler who is playing a game with a bigger negative EV. At the end of the day you're both going to be losers. Intelligent gamblers know this, but are willing to trade that "cost" for the entertainment value. What you're proposing and what others frequently imply, makes you the sucker. It doesn't make sense to minimize your expected loss by playing a game or way that is boring for you. You've now given up your entertainment value, and you're still going to be a loser. You've given up the very commodity you're trading your money for and trying to pat yourself on the back for doing so.

    If you can play only PL and odds on craps and have fun, more power to you. If you can bang away at a FP JoB machine and have fun more power to you. But if you're just doing that to minimize your expected loss and getting less entertainment value in return, then you're the biggest sucker in the casino, not the guy playing the penny machines or carny bets on the tables.
     
  8. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    Well put! I agree with you completely and I think it applies more to craps than most other games or gaming in general. Just because in craps there are so many bets, and the most conservative way to play is probably the most boring.

    There is some entertainment value in playing "optimal strategy" and giving the casino a razor thin edge. But you make a good point that religiously focusing on that sort of destroys the whole point of this being entertainment and a losing proposition regardless. I know I'm guilty of often having that type of focus as well.
     
  9. thecarve

    thecarve Misanthrope

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    :clap:
     
  10. Da_Nit

    Da_Nit Low-Roller

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    I agree totally agree but think you missed the point. Yes I try to focus most of my money on pass line and come bets with the most money on the odds. That doesn't mean I don't place the 6 and 8 for the min and go up a unit each time it hits. That or toss a chip to the stickman for the occasional ace deuce hop bet or high horn ace deuce. Yeah they don't have as good a return but it's fun.

    The thing is I don't understand people that don't do basic research before they come to the table. I see people posting in other threads thinking you get better odds on place bets or that odds bets are sucker bets the casino wants you to place. There's a reason the odds bet is the only bet not on the table while all those bets in the middle are so prominently displayed along with the Big 6 & 8. Also hear people telling stories of people placing the 6 & 8 for $5 or $6 on the pass with $5 on the odds with point being 5 or 9.

    I just think people should spend a few minutes doing some resaearch beforehand.
     
  11. vegasvic

    vegasvic VIP Whale

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    Good thread. I try to gamble "smart" in every game I play (usually just craps and BJ). But it someone wants to make "bad" bets it's their money. Gamblers (and people in general) tend to remember the positives and forget the negatives. I've seen players blow a ton of money on center table bets but they don't want to hear how those are bad bets, they will tell you about all the times they've won a bundle. It's the basic gamblers fallacy of "when I win it's because I'm a smart gambler, when I lose it's because of bad luck".
     
  12. stackinchips

    stackinchips High-Roller

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    I get what you're saying. Part of my post wasn't specifically directed at you. There seems to be posts along these lines quite frequently on here talking about various "sucker bets" and a general feel of thumbing their nose at people who play anything with a higher house edge than whatever their game of choice is. I think it's important to be an informed gambler. For example I'll play the ATAS when I'm on a craps table about 50% of the time. I know the house edge is high, but so is my entertainment value that I receive in return. For me, it's worth the "cost" (Also I'm pretty sure I'm up lifetime on this as I've hit the ALL 6 times and one of the two more than I can count over the last couple years, but in the long run it will even out).

    Like I said above, we're all expected losers at the end of the day. I just think that people should be aware of what a bet "costs" in the casino, and then play whatever game they enjoy the most for that "cost". It just gets old hearing people preach about running around town trying to find FP JoB rather than playing some other "sucker" game. That's great if you can play JoB and be entertained. It just seems like for some they get caught up in trying to minimize their expected loss, regardless of how much fun their having.
     
  13. sevenyo11

    sevenyo11 Low-Roller

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    I play craps to enjoy myself. I don't play with the intention of making a ton of money, let alone worrying about this bet gives me a better % against the house. Yea it my save me some money in the long run but if I was worried about saving some money I wouldn't be playing now would I. Its quite obvious knowing the true odds doesn't really change the way anyone plays. Next someone is going to tell me they believe in dice control shooting because they ONCE had a big roll using the GOLDEN TOUCH CRAPS method.
     
  14. Hawaiianmark

    Hawaiianmark Low-Roller

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    .....but if you take one expected 7 out of the equation.....:evillaugh
     
  15. dannyocean

    dannyocean High-Roller

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    This.
     
  16. La$Vega$

    La$Vega$ Low-Roller

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    "If you don't know the correct odds by heart and can't rattle them off just a s quickly as your own telephone number or your best girl's name,
    then you should swear off Craps and play marbles instead, or you should take time out right now and start memorizing the odds."
    ~John Scarne - Scarne on Dice
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2015
  17. Hiero

    Hiero Tourist

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    I agree with the general sentiment that you should play a way that's entertaining and not be too math-intensive with "optimum bets", cuz that guy playing dark with full odds because it's "best" in really just throwing money away since he could be playing blackjack, instead. Bah.

    However: it's also important to note that some bets are horrid -- Big Red is one of those. Bad bad bad. It'll suck your money away quickly, and that's not fun. Hardways are poor bets, so putting $25 on pass and then $25 on a hardway is also a good way to go broke. Even yos and crapchecks are bad.

    But: if you're throwing $1 on the yo or craps, then we're talking about $3 an hour. Meh? I tip more than that, and if I'm drinking the waitress gets more of my money than $3/hr.

    Next, knowing that buying the 4 or 10 is better than placing them, and roughly twice as bad as laying them. There's a handful of choices like this where there's multiple ways to make the same bet, and some are cheaper than others. Odds homework can pay off.

    Note that placing the 6 and 8 is roughly equivalent to the pass line; to me, close enough to not care. Placing 5 and 9 roughly 2.7x worse. Field bet 2x worse than the line.

    Finally, note that odds bets are 0%. The best bet in the house, right? Since it's such an awesome bet, would you put your house up on the bet? No; it's a coin flip. An investor would never make that bet. A card counter would complain that Kelly mandates one put 0% on odds. So why play odds? It just makes the game swingier. If that's fun for you, then go ahead. But saying "it's the best bet in the house" gets back to the point that you're comparing negative expectation games, wherein the "smart play" is to buy casino stock and gamble $0.
     
  18. Landshark

    Landshark Way into it...

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    Great thread. Played for the very first time this trip. It's one hell of an adrenalin rush!
     
  19. PayTriple

    PayTriple The Cucumber King

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    Absolutely wrong: playing Don't with full 3-4-5 odds has a house advantage of 0.346%, the very lowest HA in the casino.
    No black jack rules in Las Vegas gives you that low a house advantage for playing Basic Strategy. And don't talk about card counting because that would start a different line of discussion.
     
  20. larryg

    larryg Low-Roller

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    A couple of Hiero's calculations understate the true loss. For example, if you bet $1 on yo or craps, the $/hour figure is only true if you make that bet just on the come out roll. Make the bet on every roll, and it's more like $10/hour. You can decrease your loss on any bet by betting less often!

    A second example: saying the field bet is 2x worse than the pass line bet. Of course, this ignores the combination pass line with odds, and also assumes you're playing at a table that offers 3:1 odds on the 12. Even so, if you make the field bet on every roll, it's more like 7x as bad as the pass line. Again, betting less often decreases your loss, but you could just as well bet less often on the pass line.
     
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