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Table Games Cosmopolitan - Oops they did it again (Another Blackjack downgrade)

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Viva Las Vegas, Aug 4, 2013.

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  1. Viva Las Vegas

    Viva Las Vegas Ramblin' Gamblin' Man

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    I played at Cosmo when it opened and had a great time playing and winning playing double deck with decent rules (DAS though H17). I received a few offers and stayed, finding BJ has deteriorated but they still had a few playable games. CSM was put in for many games, and they introduced 6/5 at several tables (which sadly were well populated). The DD game was bumped to $100 (I stuck with the 6 deck game). I got in some time (about 3 hours a day) but played more at Bellagio with better conditions.

    The past three times I've visited the Cosmo, the conditions have gotten worse. They now offer 6/5 on the $50 DD games and IIRC all tables under $100 were CSM or 6/5. They still had a playable 6 deck game (DAS, RSA, Surrender) under $100. I played once, played craps only a second visit and nothing my last visit.

    I received a comp offer, but wanted to see recent conditions before committing. The Wong sheets confirmed conditions have become even worse, with the playable six deck game becoming an eight deck game, leaving green chip players with no decent game (the 6 deck $100 tables have better rules than the $200 DD H17 game). Not sure how they expect to compete neighbored by Aria and Bellagio, both with much better offerings.

    I passed on my two night offer and will stay 5 days at Caesars instead. BJ will be limited to TI, Wynn and MILFe properties (Aria, Bellagio and MGM).
     
  2. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    Lots of bad stuff, continues there.

    Meanwhile, why do people hate the auto shuffle? Unless you are a counter, it does not change your odds. If you count, I get it.
     
  3. RC

    RC Low-Roller

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    I will go back to Cosmo after they go belly up and see if the next owner wants to offer a competitive game to the BJ players.
     
  4. paperposter

    paperposter VIP Whale

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    unless u play in the high limite rules they have the wortst table odds and its been like that for a long time,

    on weekends high limit bj can have a 500 miniumium at the tables there usualy empty
     
  5. RC

    RC Low-Roller

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    They think that they are the B for Bellagio, when it reality the B is for bust or bankruptcy ...
     
  6. Corinne

    Corinne Low-Roller

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    I just always seem to lose when I play with those. Plus I was talking to a dealer last year and she won't play if they use them either. How true this is I have no idea but she told me why. She said once when dealing she decided to test it and on one deal there were a lot of aces. She put all those cards, including the aces, back in the shuffler upside down, purely by mistake you understand, lol. It was two hours before one of those cards came out again. As I said I have no idea if she was making it up or even whether that is possible.

    Maybe someone here knows but it sure put me off even more.

    Corinne
     
  7. ams722

    ams722 Side Bet Shunner

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    Not sure what the news is here. Their shoe games have been 8 decks since I first went there over a year ago...
     
  8. ams722

    ams722 Side Bet Shunner

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    Also, why is an 8 deck game so much worse than a 6 deck game with the same rules? Is the 0.02% extra house edge that much of a deal breaker?
     
  9. bigalbr

    bigalbr VIP Whale

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    CSMs deal more hands/hour than a shoe. If you aren't counting, you're playing at a disadvantage. Every hand dealt costs you money, so CSMs suck your bankroll dry faster than a shoe.
     
  10. clubsoda

    clubsoda Tourist

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    It's about $2 an hour at the $100 level. Not a ton, but when there are better games literally next door it certainly makes the game less appealing.

    Your question can easily be flipped around to the Cosmo as well. Is that measly .02% extra worth potentially losing customers to Aria or Bellagio?
     
  11. ams722

    ams722 Side Bet Shunner

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    I agree, I'd rather play a 6 deck shoe based on principle alone. I have no problem playing an 8 deck game at Monte Carlo because their rules are liberal and their minimums are low. But at the Cosmo, where their main tables jump up to at least $25 a hand in the afternoons, I would never play these rules.

    But let's face it, the majority of Vegas gamblers are dumb tourists. They're not going to pay attention to whether or not a shoe has 6 or 8 decks. Hell, most of them don't even care if the game pays 6 to 5 or not.
     
  12. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    Auto-shufflers are not the same things as CSMs. Auto-shufflers have no effect on the house edge, they just save time so the casino can deal more hands per hour.

    CSMs actually lower the house edge a little bit because without a cut card they increase the distribution of high cards dealt over time. See the Wizard's site for the sim results. Its negligible but the effect is in the player's favor. However they can deal a lot more hands per hour so net net it increases your expected loss.

    I've actually always had luck with CSM tables for some reason. Its a small sample size, I just play at them when I'm donking around but I think I've won every time I've played one. Nonetheless I'm not a fan, not just because of the increased speed but just aesthetic reasons. I like the ritual and the break provided by the dealer shuffling.
     
  13. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    I always do very poorly with CSMs and I prefer a shoe.

    But, I've also had a buddy run his $300 up to $10k in just a hours at a CSM while I was with him.

    I'm not sure why people continue to wonder why the Cosmo doesn't have excellent gaming. It's just not their business model. They're in the hotel and services business with a casino. Most resorts are a casino with a hotel and services. It's just a different way of looking at the Vegas market. They aren't competing for your casino dollars.

    They want you to eat, take in a spa, the club, their concerts, shop, etc. The casino is a secondary or a tertiary source of revenue for them... not their primary source.

    If you want comps and excellent gaming... look elsewhere.
     
  14. Keyser Soze

    Keyser Soze Low-Roller

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    Excellent point. This is correct.

    Unless you are counting, there is no reason to avoid a CSM game. You can ask the dealer for a lammer and take a break anytime you want.
     
  15. BLNT

    BLNT High-Roller

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    (not pertaining to Cosmo, but...)

    When the house is calculating your theo while playing BJ, do they factor in the difference between CSM tables and shoe games?

    The only CSM games I've played (in Vegas) were at Bellagio - and that was Blackjack Switch. Not sure if I've ever played switch from a shoe. Fun game BTW, but it's always at low limits so everyone and their brother drops in to lose $50-$100 then leave... or pull out a couple of wadded up $5's or $10's to buy enough for one more hand. ;)
     
  16. Drambler

    Drambler High-Roller

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    This is true but I really enjoy the natural break when a shuffle comes around. If I am at a fun table it's great to chat up the other folks and have a good time before everyone has to pay attention to their cards again.

    It just seems wrong to keep on going like that too. I miss the old days..and I am not THAT old.
     
  17. daywalker

    daywalker Tourist

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    Of course she was making it up. She would not have been there dealing for two hours with no break/game change for a start.
     
  18. Corinne

    Corinne Low-Roller

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    How true. Never thought of that. You guys are so logical. Maybe I won't steer clear of them this time.
     
  19. Viva Las Vegas

    Viva Las Vegas Ramblin' Gamblin' Man

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    I'm comparing the initial game which is the basis for my offers vs. today. I played the 6 deck only because I was there on a comp offer, and played for a lower amount / less time (and haven't played it at all during subsequent visits). While it is a small incremental worsening since the last comp stay in terms of odds coupled with widespread CSM, there are no reasons to gamble at Cosmo especially when there are far superior options to the North (Bellagio) or South (Aria/MGM) at the same or even smaller table minimums.

    A 0.2% difference (Opening month vs. today) means you pay dearly for Cosmo "comps" (they charge a resort fee on the room - at least for my offer) if you play for significant amounts / time.

    In regards to the CSM comments, regardless of whether you count or track the shuffle, players see more hands / have no breaks in the action. While you can take more beraks / walk away (and strategically should when the shoe runs bad), players typically stay at the table and play longer / more hands than they would, not to mention dealers "conveniently" forgetting the feed Aces back for an extra hand or two. The casinos wouldn't pay for these machines if they didn't earn more than they paid for it.

    Also, many of the tables which were open during my last visits were DD 6/5 $25 tables. There was only one playable table option under $100.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  20. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

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    I don't mind CSMs. If i'm not counting, these things always offer a theoritical count of zero. This is far better than the many negative counts one will encounter when playing a 6 or 8 deck shoe game.

    The things make the casino more money precisely because there are more hands played per hout than with any other configuration. But, as a player, you have complete control over how many hand you play per hour... and with these things, sitting out a hand or 3 is always permitted.

    I will purposely slow down my play on one of these tables, either through taking my time in making my hit/stand/split/double decision, or through sitting out hands.

    It can actually be sort-of relaxing to play one of these, as they are typically not crowded, always have DAS, often offer surrender & RSA, and when played with perfect or near-perfect basic strategy, still offer a lower HA than any other game in the casino (assuming 3:2, DAS, LS, RSA & H17) other than a really good 2-deck game or a shoe with similar rules.

    If you're a counter, these are good tables to go to when you're too drunk or too tired to keep an accurate count.
    If I don't go to a three-card table, this is where I go when tired/drunk.
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
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