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Comps @ Encore (2014)

Discussion in 'Comps' started by danelkes, Jun 18, 2014.

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  1. danelkes

    danelkes Tourist

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    A few observations from my annual trip to Vegas.

    I usually travel to Vegas once a year from Morocco in July during the WSOP Main Event but this year I went in early June because I had to be in Montréal for a wedding on the 15th.

    You can find in this forum a summary of my 2013 trip (thread: Comps @ Encore).

    I arrived in Vegas on Saturday the 5th of june at noon and left Thursday night the 12th of June around midnight, so basically 5.5 days.

    Like the previous year I got a Parlor Suite for my wife and myself and this year invited two relatives in two King rooms in the Towers Suite. I have had a Salon Suite in the past but find it to be way too big and never felt good in it.

    Since I was travelling for a shorter time this year, I wired front money 131.5$K, and I do not have a line of credit (never asked for it).

    I play mostly craps with the same pattern: 150 or 200 pass with full odds, 360 on 6 and 8 and 100 others. Press around 50%. 150 on features (50 x 3).Some hardways for a 100 once in a while. When I throw the dice I will raise the pass and features bets amounts a little (to 250 and 225).

    I had a very succesful trip with high variance in the first couple days (one +50k$ session followed by a -45k$).
    Like the previous year, I hit the All 5 times and once got the number 6 to max (6000$) and hit it 3 times.
    I was rated usually around $2,000 for my craps play , sometimes more thanks to the good tipping.

    I also had a couple sessions of Baccarat where I finished even or small loss with an average of about 3000$.

    I have a new international host this year since my previous one (a domestic host) left the Wynn.

    My final stats for the trip were:
    Time: 48 hours (probably 42 hours craps and 6 hours baccarat)
    Average: 2200$ (1800 last year)
    Theo: 73k (exactly the same as the previous year, but last year was 9 days)
    Win: +91k (biggest win ever).

    Sorry for the rounded numbers, that's what I was given.

    Concerning the comps, this is were things changed from the previous year and I wasn't too happy with it on the last day of my trip.

    Reminder: the previous year I wired 155k$ Front Money and had a 73k$ theo. I was comped $13,100 (for Rooms, Food,2.2k$ extras) and given a 7% airfare allowance on front money worth $10,850.
    So total comps of around 24k$ (or 32% of my theo).

    This year, on the last day, my host told me that he would pick up all my expenses (3 Rooms, Food, 1 Spa, 2 Pool beds) for a total of $9,200.
    Since I had a total 40% of 73k theo available ($29,200), I was expecting to get the 7% airfare on my front money ($9,200) without any problem. I would even have had an extra $10,800 in comps that I would not have used ($29,200 - $9,200 -$9,200).
    On the night of my departure, my host got the papers ready for $9,200, we went to the cashier. He called someone to get the authorization, and this is were things changed compared to last year.

    His supervisor told him that this year, they not only looked at my theo (which was way over what I needed to get the 7% airfare), but they also looked at my Front Money.
    I was told that since I had 130k$ in Front Money, the max I could get was 10% of that (40% max of a needed $32,500 theo for this line).
    She told him that since I had no LOC, I was ranked as a 130k$ player and could get a max of 13k$ in comps. Basically I played an extra $40,000 theo for which I received no comps...

    I understand the maths behind this but I let them know that I didn't like the change in rules from one year to another. The previous year I had got 24k$ for the same Theo and 155k$ Front Money. Maybe the fact that I won big this year was the reason.

    My airfare was thus reduced to $4,300 for a total of $13,500 in comps (for a total of 18.5% of my theo).

    What my host suggested was that for next year I transfer as usual 150k$ in Front Money ans ask for a 150k$ LOC. This way I would be rated as a 300k$ player, would need 75k$ to qualify which would allow me to get my full airfare. I am not sure this is what I want to do since I would prefer not having a LOC. I will look into this before my trip next year.

    I think however that for them to not base the comps on theo only is quite unfair, and I was told about this only on the last day. Even my host was surprised. I could have maybe gone to another casino to finish my trip had I known.
    What if I had more money in cash in my safe, should I have credited them to my account? How would they comp and rate a player who played the same amount but with no Front Money, only cash? Did they make a mistake in 2013 or was I short changed in 2014?

    Don't get me wrong, this was a wonderful trip and I am very happy with the results and my biggest lifetime win. But I just want to know if I obtained what I was supposed to in comps (thus the post in this section).

    Thanks.
     
  2. firstkill

    firstkill High-Roller

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    Tough scenerio, I think you are in the "right" and Wynn employee just took a big gamble on your future business. I would assume the big win is why they are limiting you.

    I guess those comps that they need to pay to outside vendors, like airfare are even more valuable.
    For your case I'd bet they rather comp u 20,000 in hotel expenses, food, pool, rooms. Then pay out 5k to an airline.

    Fk
     
  3. JohnnyBlackjack

    JohnnyBlackjack Tourist

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    This is a pretty odd situation as they are basically saying that your comps are capped at 40% of 1/4 theo of your FM deposit, so essentially there is no benefit for you to continue playing once you reach $32,500 in theo. It sounds like from NateDogg's posts and others that Wynn always uses this system of 12hrs, 1/4 theo of FM/Line and will rebate 40% of that. I'm guessing this is something that needs to be set up prior to your trip which is why they are recommending you do $150K FM and $150K LOC so your comps relate to the "real" level you play at. Again a very weird situation and likely the win had some influence on it, but I can also see their side of it. Basically, you are playing at a $300K level but the most they can win from you is $130K, so they don't want to comp you at a level that's not realistic for them in terms of profit. Because of this, they want to know that they have a shot at your bankroll at $X amount if they are going to comp you at that level, but in terms of basic business practice, I don't think it's the smartest play, that's my 2 cents.
     
  4. natedog666

    natedog666 17 and 20 Expert

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    Just from my experience as an international player, and also because I ask a lot of questions, the way they had you setup previously on 7% FM airfare allowance is very interesting. Usually for us Asian players, they separate the FM and airfare, though both are based on your LOC and FM combined. So you still have to hit your they for the level that you want. From your scenario, since you only wired in 150k or so, you will only qualify under the Asian rules for 100k player, so have to hit a theo of 25k (you blew that away). At the 100k level you get 2 tickets at 3.5k each or 7k. Also a 10% loss discount if you lose. But the kicker is that you almost got 75k theo, or the 300k player level, that would have qualified you for 4 tickets (14k), and a 3% FM bonus.

    I think the whole system is set up to prevent players from getting a lot of airfare for getting way more theo then their line or FM would warrant, which usually happens when they win...so I can see the casino's logic, but it sucks because you were expecting more...sorry for typos as I'm doing this on a phone.
     
  5. Waltz69

    Waltz69 Tourist

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    Congrats on your big win, thats whats important! Your now a double winner, $90k and you learned an important lesson without getting burned. Never send front money without asking questions, casinos change their offers everyday without notifying players (and often without telling hosts). You got lucky, imagine if you lost $5-10k and then they stiffed you on the airfare.
    Before your next trip you should be very clear with your host that the Wynn needs to earn your play, you have history with them so they need to be upfront about what they will and won't be giving back for that play. And if you decide to do a LOC (I wouldn't) those terms change like the wind too.
     
  6. natedog666

    natedog666 17 and 20 Expert

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    I would be the last one to defend a casino, but terms usually don't change without warning. In this case, I don't think the terms were changed on him, he just didn't know that they had a cap on theo earned based on your FM and LOC combined, and that any theo played beyond that level is wasted. I think proper research when you are playing at that level is helpful, since it could make a big difference. They have so many little nuances and exceptions that it can be tough to figure out sometimes, but I always ask ahead of time.
     
  7. danelkes

    danelkes Tourist

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    Thanks all for the great answers.

    I would agree with you Nate, but they did change the rules without warning.

    In 2013, I did get my 7% airfare on top of the regular comps for a total of 24k$, far more than the 10% limit on Front Money they set this year (155k$ Front money in 2013). Maybe they made a mistake in 2013, maybe not.

    Maybe not as much as you but I do a lot of research and ask a lot of questions before I travel, exactly to avoid this situation. My new International host (I had a domestic one previously) had told me I would get the 7% airfare on FM. He even had the $9,200 voucher ready for me! Only once he talked to an International Exec for authorization was it reduced to $4,300. I can tell you my host wasn't feeling too proud at that moment.

    How do you think they would comp an international player with a 75k$ Theo without any FM or LOC?

    As you know, Alex Pariente left the Wynn last year and I believe that the new team might be much stricter on their rules.

    I wrote a mail to the Exec who reduced the airfare. I'll post her main points when she answers back.
     
  8. natedog666

    natedog666 17 and 20 Expert

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    Oh yeah, Alex leaving has probably changed a lot of policies there. Certainly would make them even more stricter, considering the circumstances of his departure :)
     
  9. firstkill

    firstkill High-Roller

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    interested in their response, I wonder how long it would be for them to draft a letter back.
    maybe it might even be a generic letter lol

    fk
     
  10. chonglosaxon

    chonglosaxon MIA

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    Stupid move by them to do this. Theyre playing russian roulette with a great player any place would want. I would wait for the letter and if tou dont get the deal you want, then call the name on the letter and let them know you will.
    They will make this right, guaranteed.
     
  11. danelkes

    danelkes Tourist

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    Wynncore comps policy

    After a phone call and a couple mails from them, they confirmed their position.

    Comps will be based on a maximum 10% of Front Money...

    This is really bad, since they had no idea how mush cash I might have had on me or if I had any backup plans (which in this case I did with a friend in town who would have helped me out if I needed more funds or another bank transfer if I had time).

    I answered back that this would lead to one of the following, me not going back to Wynncore anymore but to another place where I will be comped on my full Theo, or if I go back, me stopping playing once I reach the required 12 hours and 25% Theo needed for my Front Money (which might be within a couple days of my trip).

    I never got the answer to two questions I asked:

    - why did the rules change between 2013 and 2014 where I went from 31.4% comps on my Theo in 2013 to 18.5% this year without prior notice?
    - what would have happened if I put a 75k Theo with no front money?

    This is a bad business decision I believe. They gave me the example of someone who comes to the casino with 2k$, goes on a crazy heater and wins 100k with 50k theo. They said they couldn't give him an additional 20k in comps. I of course fully understand this.

    But if they can't make the difference between that lucky type of player and me, too bad for them.
     
  12. bertacomas

    bertacomas Newbie

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    This doesn't seem very fair. If I win from the casino, at that point the money is mine and if I choose to gamble it more I should be comped on that play. I could choose to go home with it, or play it next door.
     
  13. CaptainJack

    CaptainJack Low-Roller

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    Their logic is completely flawed and if I played at Wynn, I wouldn't stand for this. Regardless of what you BRING to gamble with, your theo is always going to be what you actually gamble. If you brought $2k and gambled enough to win $50k and have a $40k theo loss, you still gambled $1mil or more and should be comped accordingly. If you exceeded the amount they expected you to gamble, they should be grateful that you continue to give them a chance to win their money back. Capping comps is bad business.

    No matter the stakes we play at, we all understand the competition for the high-end players is fierce. It's shocking that Wynn would want to shoot themselves in the foot by capping comps.
     
  14. natedog666

    natedog666 17 and 20 Expert

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    One of the key points to this is that wired in front money is different from cash you brought in. I tried to take out some cash from my front money this time and it wasn't allowed. They need to wire back to your personal account overseas, so that's the main difference between front money and cash for international programs.
     
  15. natedog666

    natedog666 17 and 20 Expert

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    For credit lines, if they have you as a 100k player, and you hit the theo of a 300k player, you still only get the comps of a 100k player....
     
  16. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    So basically it just creates a huge disincentive to gamble another penny once you hit your 12 hours and 25% of FM theo target. You might as well just go next door.

    Assuming you play baccarat, the Wizard's table of numbers used for comp purposes are 1.2% HA and 72 hands per hour. So 25% theo over 12 hours would imply an average bet of:

    .25 / .012 / 12 / 72 = 2.4% of your FM. I guess that is pretty realistic. But if your average bet is over 2.4% of your FM and you last the 12 hours you're basically getting screwed in terms of comps.
     
  17. natedog666

    natedog666 17 and 20 Expert

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    Yup, I pretty much stop playing when I hit the 25% fm theo. If I don't have 12 hours I will play UTH for small stakes or some other carny game.
     
  18. sindustry

    sindustry VIP Whale

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    Out of curiousity, I assume this comp capping is exclusive to International players? Or is it accross the board and also holds true for domestic players?
     
  19. danelkes

    danelkes Tourist

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    Exactly. And when I come once a year to Vegas, it is to gamble and spend a lot of time at the tables. In 2013 I played 59 hours 74k$ theo in 9 days, in 2014 48 hours 73k$ in 5.5 days (when I would have needed only 33k$ Theo for the max comps).

    My average bet is closer to 1.5% but for longer hours.

    So a solution would be to stop playing when I reach the 25% theo of my FM, but then what?


    Nate, what do you do? You could just relax and take it easy from there. But if you want to play more?
    You physically check in another hotel to start a new trip? I suppose you also have to make another FM transfer since the Wynn sends the FM back.
    Can you start a trip at the Cosmo for example without having a room there? Or do you just move from one hotel to another?
     
  20. natedog666

    natedog666 17 and 20 Expert

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    You don't actually have to live in a hotel to have a trip there, just have action there every 3-4days I believe. I usually have a trip going at 2-3 casinos at the same time for the theo reason as well as for luck reasons. If some place is not working, switch.
     
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