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Table Games Come Bet vs. Place Bet

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by BrendanMc, Aug 17, 2012.

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  1. BrendanMc

    BrendanMc Tourist

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    Normally I'm a come better, however I've been thinking about this. If at a $5 table with 2x odds and I have a come bet on the 4, I will have $15 on it ($5 bet plus $10 odds). If the 4 hits, I will win $25. If I were to just place a bet on the 4 for $15 and it hits, I would win $27. This is the case for all points, where the payout would be higher for place bets than for come bets. My question is what is the advantage, if any of making come bets? I realize that if you put enough odds down on the come bets you would get a bigger payout than betting the same amount as a place bet, but that doesn't happen until you put down about 10x odds, which strip tables usually don't offer. I also realize that with come bets you have the opportunity to win on a 7 or 11, but you also can lose with a craps.

    Sorry if this doesn't make sense, let me know if you need me to clarify anything. It just seems logically that placing bets on points nets you slightly higher wins than come bets, even with odds.
     
  2. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    You already said it, but the difference is the come-out roll on the come bet. Being able to win even money with 8 numbers and only lose with 3 is a very good thing. The house edge on the overall come bet with odds (which includes the possibility of the come-out roll bonus) is lower than the place bet.
     
  3. Turtleman

    Turtleman VIP Whale

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    I normally play BJ, but as I understand craps, the overall odds still favor come bets … regardless of the number. It all has to do the payoffs and the fact that 7 and 11 are working on the come out. If making place bets, the mathematical odds are best for the 6 and 8, then 5 and 9, with 4 and 10 being the worse. That said, I sometimes make come bets and sometimes place the 6 and/or 8. Only on those rare occasions when things are going really well would I place the 5 or 9. I'd never place the 4 or 10 – better off buying those numbers.
     
  4. Hogman

    Hogman VIP Whale

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    The only time that you have an advantage in craps is on the come out roll if you are playing the pass line.

    But I usually just place the point. You do get a better payout and you also get a higher rating at most tables because most do not count the odds bet or give you a discounted rating.

    The pass line bet does have a smaller house advantage and I don't know if the other factors make up the difference.
     
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  5. Bazzito52

    Bazzito52 Low-Roller

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    Depending on what you are trying to accomplish, there can be a big difference between place bets and come bets.

    Sam Grafstein explains it in his great book “The Dice Doctor” but I’ll try to give it a try.

    Certainly, the combined come bet + odd is the lowest fixed edge bet against the player in the casino – under 1%. Place bets carry between a 1.5% and 6.5% edge against the player, depending on the number.

    Of course come bets will pay on the first bet in the event of an eleven on the come out – place bets don’t.

    And come bets pay on the first bet should a seven be thrown on the come out – place bets don’t. And the big difference: Established come bets also lose with a seven on the come out. They’ll return your odds, but the flat portion loses – not so with established place bets.

    So, if your goal is to win money by having multiple numbers in action, the come bet can be a big drawback with a shooter who makes a bunch of naturals on the come out – taking down all of your come bets.

    Sam G. suggests an alternative that negates the “Seven. Pay the line. Take the come.” on the come out that can vex the come bettor during a hot roll. He calls it the “converted come bet.”

    1. Make a standard bet on the pass line and take odds once a point is established.

    2. After a box number is rolled place the number.

    3. Should any number of subsequent sevens be rolled on the come out, your place number stays, as it will be “off” on the come out roll.

    4. If your place bet pays off, you can either leave it up or say “take me down” and remove it from play and then place the next number rolled, just as you would have had it been a come bet.

    Of course, you miss the advantage of a come bet paying should an eleven be rolled, but you save all of your flat come bets losing if the same shooter should make a natural seven on any come out.

    So place bets and come bets each have their advantages. The strategy for using them will vary depending on what you are trying to accomplish.
     
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  6. Ben Jammin

    Ben Jammin VIP Whale

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    Place bet vs come bet

    Some people only place bet. They prefer the control over the bet to the lower house advantage on the come bet.

    As a come bet is like an extension of a pass line bet, a bet within the game = to a pass line bet, and once it's up it has to stay up.

    You can take down your odds, but the original bet has to stay up. Because it has survived the come out roll, where on the do side it's to the player's advantage, the bet must remain.

    On the place bet, you can place the 6 and 8 for a set amount, in increments of $6 and it pays $7 for every $6 you put up.

    There are 6 ways to make a 7 and 5 ways to make a six or eight so one might say that placing the six and eight, one has 10 number combinations to choose from (5 ways to make a six or eight), vs 6 ways to make a 7. Ten vs six. The odds come out the same, 1.67% more or less in the houses favor.

    Sounds like a stretch? Sure but some players live by this rule and do well. They try to get a feel for the table and follow trends, which are fickle to say the least. You never know what Lady Luck might bring you tonight.

    --
     
  7. BrendanMc

    BrendanMc Tourist

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    Thanks for the info, that makes sense. Sometimes I get carried away and keep making come bets on every roll until a seven out. I can't help it, I love the action. It's awesome on those long rolls, not so awesome when the shooter hits every box number once then promptly sevens out.
     
  8. Polemarch28

    Polemarch28 Tourist

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    I used to put up across bets. High risk, but very high reward. Even on the example you mentioned, the across strategy would turn a small profit.

    The flipside: when a shooter sevens out immediately. That sucks big.
     
  9. Nittany1

    Nittany1 VIP Whale

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    There is a big difference in your rating also in place bets vs.come bets with approximately the same $ in action.
    Some people think the comp difference offsets the difference in the % of house advantage.

    If you are green chip player and have a line bet with full odds on say the 5,and place the 6 and 8 for $150 each you have $425 in action and you will be rated as a $325 avg bet player.

    Using the same scenario on come bets 5 is the point and come bets with full odds on 6 and 8 you will have $425 in action but you will be rated a $75 avg. player.
    Not sure this matters to a lot of people but the rating difference is huge for the same action.
     
  10. Dpin300

    Dpin300 Low-Roller

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    You lost me at the second sentence :s but I'm a non experienced craps player. Thanks to this board I'm gonna play when I go to Vegas. Thought of practicing online and learning the rules but I think I'll just "bet max" and hope on "beginners luck" :)
     
  11. vsop

    vsop Low-Roller

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    BMac, you nailed it pretty good...Unless the table odds are 10X or better and the table minimum is $3 or less, you are better off making a place bet for the same amount as the come, plus odds....if you still think you are missing out on the action by not betting the come bet, then try this...mimic a come bet by placing that number after the number is rolled....if you used to do two come bets, then place bet two numbers after they are rolled....an old timer pointed out to me that the sucker bets on the crap table have the biggest layout on the table...horn ,hardways, COME....the best bets for the player have the smallest layout...don't pass...or have no layout...pass line odds.
     
  12. Ben Jammin

    Ben Jammin VIP Whale

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    Come out roll wins on 7 or 11

    One disadvantage of place betting is that you don't get the chance to win on the come out roll, as most likely your bets will be off.

    If you bet the come it's like a game within a game, and a 7 or 11 wins on that roll for the come bet but a 7 loses the points you have up. So, in effect, one might say that you are hedging your points on every come.

    Win even money on the come and lose all bets and odds on the points.

    Still better than nothing!
     
  13. makikiboy

    makikiboy VIP Whale

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    I have seen some players only play come bets. The problem with that is that after they covered all the numbers someone on the come out can roll a 7. All the come bets come down (the player gets back his odds bets) and the player has to start the process all over again.

    Another thing to note, with come bets, the number has to be rolled twice, once to establish the come bet point and the next time to win your bet. With a place bet the number needs to hit once in order for you to win your initial investment.

    I usually do a mix of come bets and place bets, usually placing the 6 and 8 and maybe 1 or 2 come bets at a time. If the roll goes longer then I either make place or come bets depending on the shooter's tendencies.

    every player has a different way of playing though so it will depend on what you feel most comfortable with. Hopefully you can be on a good table and have the luxury of deciding to play place or come bets.
     
  14. jhpa

    jhpa High-Roller

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    Here are my thoughts - I would be interested in comments to see if my reasoning is faulty.

    I see two advantages to the come bet vs the place bet. First, is the win on the seven/eleven when you make the come bet. The other is the ability to place odds and earn a higher payout vs what you get on the place bet. The odds advantage is made more signigicant if you take advantage of two times or five times or 10 times or whatever the house allows. If you only put single odds behind the come bet, it really minimizes any advantage and you might as well place the number.

    That is why I like come bets on a table with low minimum bets (like $5) because then I can maximize the odds allowed. With my budget, I can afford two or three $5 come best with $25 odds. But if I have to make a $15 come bet I won't go above the $15 minimum. So at a $15 table I am more inclined to use place bets.
     
  15. LV_Bound

    LV_Bound VIP Whale

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    You car argue both ends of the spectrum.

    Personally I like to control as many as I bets as possible.
    Also, I like doing the place bet so I win on the first time it hits as opposed to the first time a number hits you are essentially setting the point.

    Granted on a cold table this method is also a faster way to lose cash.
     
  16. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    This is wrong: the sucker bets on the crap table have the biggest layout on the table...horn ,hardways, COME....

    Grouping the come bet with the horn and hardways as a 'sucker bet' is completely wrong. Come bets are exactly the same as a passline bet (except the 'game' starts on a different roll) and offer nearly the lowest house edge anywhere on the table. When you hear some conventional wisdom from an 'old-timer', beware.

    Even with just double-odds your odds are 2-1/2 times better on the come compared to place betting the 6 or 8. (0.61 HA vs. 1.52 HA).
     
  17. Pinny Long

    Pinny Long High-Roller

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    This is ONE of the reasons I always play some Come Bets.
    I HATE it when a point is marked and the very next roll is a 7.
    This hedges against that a bit.
    I hate hedging (for instance, I buy YO bets on a Come Out roll but not C&E because I don't want Craps to come up).
    But here, the 7 is just incidental (I'm not betting specifically on a 7, I am shooting for anything else besides craps) and if the 7 comes up, the pain is softer than it would be otherwise because I at least get paid on that bet.

    The other reason I play Come Bets instead of Place Bets is I just like the FATE aspect of it instead of making my own determination. "Well, let the dice choose my numbers for me." I like these games as pure games of chance and I like to keep it as chancey and unscientific as possible.
     
  18. vsop

    vsop Low-Roller

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    Even with just double-odds your odds are 2-1/2 times better on the come compared to place betting the 6 or 8. (0.61 HA vs. 1.52 HA). ...

    I'm not sure what that means, but if someone has a come bet on the 6 or 8 for $10 and 2X odds ($30 total bet)...the pay out would be $34 for either the 6 or 8...conversely, a place bet of $30 on the 6 or 8 would pay out $35....I would rather get paid more for the same amount of money bet....to each his own when betting...the difference in the payout might only be $2-3, but if you multiple that by how many numbers you catch during a session, it could make the difference between breaking even or winning $$.

    As far as making a come bet to hedge against a 7 after the come out roll...great, but how do you hedge your come bets if the shooter makes the point and you have 2-3 comes bets on the table on the next come out roll?
     
  19. jhpa

    jhpa High-Roller

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    You can not compare only the come bet post come out with the place bet. You are ignoring the fact that there is a prior roll where you have 8 ways to win even money and only 4 ways to lose your bet. Imagine if you could place this as a one roll bet: 7 or 11 you win, 2, 3 12 you lose.; any other number is a push. I would bet it all day long. That is the one roll bet you ignore when you compare a place bet with a come bet post come out.
     
  20. Ezzy711

    Ezzy711 Low-Roller

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    I read my first book on craps in the 1980s. The author recommended come bets for two reasons. First the hedge bet for the 7 and second that many shooters seem to repeat certain numbers. It isn't my primary game so I don't have lots of examples other than when those repeat shooters start rolling I can clean up. My only issue is trying to remember what numbers I have during a long roll. I normally only keep 3 going just so I can keep up

    On a side note, I once had a lady next to me tell me "you know you can just bet certain numbers" like I was some sort of idiot. One of my pet peeves are well meaning strangers who give you gambling advice. I know she was trying to be helpful but my stack was bigger than her stack!
     
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