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Coin-In

Discussion in 'Comps' started by hornhiyo, Feb 18, 2014.

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  1. hornhiyo

    hornhiyo Low-Roller

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    If I put $20,000 coin in split between VP (75%) and slots (25%) over a 5 day stay, what kind of level comp should I expect at Caesars or MGM properties?

    I've never been able to figure out how they do their player ratings on slots.

    Also, are table games only rated at amount buy-in? I know it's mentioned that you have to play x amount for y number of hours, but if I play $15 for 4 hours a day, surely that must be worth something? I just don't get the feeling table games under $25 give any comp value.
     
  2. DeMoN2318

    DeMoN2318 The DERS

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    Table games are rated based on Theo

    Amount per hand ($/hand) * hands per hour (hand/hour) * hours played (hour) * HA (%) = THEO ($)
     
  3. ncoday

    ncoday Tourist

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    I dont stay at CET, so these are based on Mlife, and my own experience.

    $20k sounds like a lot of coin-in, but it is not, especially playing VP.

    $15k in VP * 1% House Edge = $150 THEO * 30% for comps = $45 - $15 in express comps.

    $5k in slots * 8% HE = $400 THEO * 30% = $120 - $16 in express comps.

    For tables it is even less - example:

    $15 a hand for BJ * 70 Hands an hour = $1,050 * 2% House Edge(generous guess) = $21 THEO per hour, or about $6/ hour in comps

    So you are looking at maybe $120 in extra comps (not counting table play), best bet would just be to ask the player's club to review your play before you leave and see if there is anything they could take off your bill.
     
  4. kiwiboy1

    kiwiboy1 Low-Roller

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    At CET $4K a day would get you $20 in comps for your trip. You should be able to see a host and get the current stay changed to a casino rate or comp especially at the lower end places (Harrahs, Flamingo, Ballys, Rio and Quad). It is unlikely you would get any more comps on that trip.

    That would be enough action to get you free rooms in the future, again at the lower end properties. It normally takes 6 to 12 weeks for the offers to kick in.
     
  5. hornhiyo

    hornhiyo Low-Roller

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    Very interesting. So daily average is a big key by the sounds of it. I'm guilty of playing for a short time on my last day, maybe I should do so without my card.
     
  6. joshrocker

    joshrocker VIP Whale

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    Yeah, this is the screwed up part of the comps game. You're better off not playing at a property or simply not using your card if you're going to play lower then your average.
     
  7. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

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    I would still play with your card: if you are somebody who goes once or twice a year you should still try to get as many points as you can.

    The whole ADT thing, because it is an average, isn't some super sensitive number that can fluctuate greatly with a little or a lot of play: consider if your play was being tracked over 10 days and your average was $500 per day over those days and then you went and put in a $50 day... even though your play is a tenth what it normally is, your average daily level of play will only go down to $460.

    On top of that, ADT is a compilation of different numbers and different calculations over different periods of time - they do it that way so that one really big spike up or down doesn't completely make or break a player's status.

    Otherwise, the reason the whole average daily theoretical loss is important versus card status or number of points is because somebody who lives near a casino could go with a couple of bucks once or twice a week and even though they are a super low roller because they happen to go so often they can make it to a higher tier than what their play warrants within how the program was designed for.
     
  8. Viva Las Vegas

    Viva Las Vegas Ramblin' Gamblin' Man

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    It takes $5k-$7K + per day to get a downtown room comped.

    $5K Coin in w/ $4k VP (1-2% EV) and $1K Slots (10% EV) = $60 + $100 = $160 in EV or about $48 in comps per day.

    You will likely get mid week and slow period room comps or reduced rates at the lower tiered CET and MILFe properties for this action.

    Keep your action at a level you are comfortable with because in the end, you are only comped based on expected house edge and you'll be better off paying for your room vs. losing more for a comped room.

    If you are not as fussy about rooms, you should do OK at The Quad, Harrahs, Flamingo, Excalibur, Luxor and Monte Carlo. Gold Coast, LVH and several downtown properties would likely show some love and comps at the same gambling levels quoted in your OP.
     
  9. BayouBengal

    BayouBengal VIP Whale

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    Buy in doesn't matter. It's bet per hand over a period of time. I've rolled up to a table with $50 in chips but sat down for 2 hours at $10 per hand. I could have rolled up with $1k and as long as I bet $10 per hand I'm rated the same.
     
  10. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    I would disagree with the above statement - for some players. Very low players will not be impacted. Then again, it is not like they are going to earn many points either.

    Speaking about CET, it is your daily average. If your coin in runs $5,000 a day when playing, but $100 on the last morning, you are totally screwing yourself by using your card on that low play day. Those points you earn would be worth way less than potential offers.

    Back when we could see our ADT each and everyday... I found out that my breakfast play was killing me. So, no card on low play days and I have a higher ADT.
     
  11. engicedave

    engicedave VIP Whale

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    First off, let's keep in mind your VP is rated at half that of your slot play.

    So if your $20K was ALL SLOT you'd be rated at $4000 per day (5 days of play) and assuming you're playing the 4-hour time frame, you're doing about $1K an hour coin in....ON SLOTS....so they're going to figure their house edge at whatever that is

    However, you stated 75% of your play was on VP, which the casino views as a low house edge, so much so they only give you 50% on tier points, so consider it has having half the value to the house.

    So now with your $4000 a day, take $3000 of that (75%) and consider it's value halved to $1500, so you didn't do $4K, you did $2250, divided over 4-hours, so you really only coined in about $550 an hour, most of it on a low house edge game.

    Remember, player rating is not all about the actual cash played, but also about how long and the house edge. VP has a very very low house edge, so a player who plays $4000 a 4-hour day in VP is going to have a much lower, likely half, rating than a $4000 a 4-hour day slot player.
     
  12. kiwiboy1

    kiwiboy1 Low-Roller

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    I politely disagree. You best bet is to play the entire $20K on one day. The comp offers you would get compared to playing $20K over 5 days will be 5 times higher. I never play a casino more than one day on any trip.

    Obviously that's a lot of play. Let's put it this way. Play one day for $5K and don't bother playing again at that casino. Your offers will be similar to playing $5K over 4 days. If you still want to play, play somewhere else. Some casinos do allow for time played as well which can have a small effect on offers. CET is not one of those.

    The above is assuming you want to maximize your offers. That's not everyone's goal and is certainly not everyone's idea of fun.
     
  13. engicedave

    engicedave VIP Whale

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    I'm sorry, that's silly.

    Casino rates you based on DAILY average, and a part of that math is how much time you play, not just how much cash you play. Also, that cash you play is not "coin in" but is how much cash you put "at risk" over that time.

    If a casino expects, for your level of comps, $1000 ADT, they also expect you to put in your time, let's say 4-hours, per day.

    Under your premise above, you'd need to play not just your $5K but also 20 hours of continuous play to break out that ADT of $1000 over a 4-hours a day play.

    You're argument makes it appear as if all one needs to do is walk in with $5K, drop 5 hands of Bac at $1000 each and be done for the week to go about their business.
     
  14. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    "Coin in" is the same as "at risk". Each dollar of coin you put in, is coin at risk. Same, same.

    To add to the above "math". Someone putting $4k at risk in one day vs 4 days of $1k each will get better offers. If the bet nothing on the other three days, and the casino thinks they are not even in town, those zero days do not get factored in. They have set themselves as willing to put more at risk,on average.



    Though we hear about the 4 hours all the time, I tend to believe coin in/ at risk has a higher bearing and may actually overrule the hours over time. The exception is someone that does high bets for a very short period of time.

    IMPORTANT NOTE HERE >> Mlife appears to use your visit for average play, so it is the same for 1,2,3,4 day visits. CET uses each day. And, keep in mind what a host will do for a given trip is usually tied to the trip, not the individual days. What a host will do is not the same as offers that will come from Marketing.
     
  15. kiwiboy1

    kiwiboy1 Low-Roller

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    My example was for slots and video poker and that is exactly how it works at most casinos. For table games since they don't have a machine tracking your play then comps are based on:

    Average Bet x Hours of Play x Average hands per hour x Expected Return

    The above formula isn't needed for machines. In your example if you went to a $1000 slot machine and had exactly 5 spins you would have the same comps as some playing a $1 slot machine with 5000 spins. They are no different.

    Like I said some casinos do factor in time played (for machines) but CET isn't one of them.
     
  16. engicedave

    engicedave VIP Whale

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    Well, wait, let's clarify, are we discussing the hotel in which we are residing or an outside hotel?

    I am discussing play/rating for the hotel in which you're residing.
    I agree if you're not staying, one big day looks better than 4 small, but if you do that at the hotel you are residing, you then have days of "no play"

    and I guess you're right, all coin in is at risk money
     
  17. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    time is meaningless on machines
    time is meaningless on machines
    time is meaningless on machines
     
  18. kiwiboy1

    kiwiboy1 Low-Roller

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    Again this isn't quite correct. Hotel stays by themselves do not trip a day of zero action at most casinos. Other things like using comps, diamond lounge, checking out with a balance, swiping cards for promotions do.

    You can get 4 nights, play one large day and your future offers will be based on one large days play for casinos that use a ADT. Some casinos (The old hilton comes to mind) use a 3 day average or even a trip average. At those casinos you should play every day. Most don't.
     
  19. engicedave

    engicedave VIP Whale

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    Not how hosts at several properties have explained it to me.
    That said, unless an actual host logs in and clarifies, we're arguing a point that will just continued to be argued with no clear resolution
     
  20. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    If talking to a host about getting comps for a current trip, they will look at all days.

    The computer doing marketing offers and evaluation "appears" to look at actual days with activity. Gambling with a card will 100% trigger a day. Other events are not always clear on this.
     
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