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Table Games can this actually be true?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by buckeyetodd, May 28, 2014.

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  1. buckeyetodd

    buckeyetodd Low-Roller

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    my brother is in vegas right now with his son. he called me yesterday to ask me about something that happened at the pai gow table. I've played tons of pai gow down through the years but he has played even more, literally tens of thousands of hands.

    anyways, he's playing 50 per hand at the mgm. he is dealt ace, ace, queen, ten, eight, five and four. most of the time all of us would put the aces in the five card hand with the queen ten on the two card. for some reason he played some sort of hunch and wanted to separate the aces, putting the ace queen on the big hand and ace ten on the small hand. the pit boss, a lady who claimed to have 30 years experience, told him he couldn't play the hand that way, that he was "cheating". she said he had to play the aces together. he's dumbfounded and argues a bit with her. he claims she said if he continues to try to cheat she would "take his money and have him escorted from the facility".

    he swears this is all true. he started thinking maybe mgm had some screwed up rules or something. I told him he should have asked for a supervisor to clarify what was going on. He was still in the mgm and I told him to go to a different pit and ask a different boss about it. so he does and the boss tells him he was right that the hand can be played any way he wants as long as the five card is stronger than the two card. he tells my brother that he will get with their supervisor and to meet him at 7 pm.

    sooooo, there is a meeting with the 30 year pit boss, another boss and their supervisor. he says the lady lied out of her ass, said it never happened, that my brother was mistaken. the supervisor has two green chips to give to my brother but he politely tells him to cram them up his ass.

    I'm sure my brother is not making up some story. Whether there was any miscommunication at the table is a mystery. I just can't think of what the pit boss might have thought he was trying to do.

    Any of you have any ideas?
     
    gonna be a two royal trip!!
  2. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Other than casino personnel are often mistaken on things, I can't think of much. What I really don't get is the offer of $50. Because she prevented him from trying to play badly? Was he somehow correct and he would have won the hand instead of pushing it and that's why they were going to give him $50? I have no idea why she thinks he may be cheating.
     
  3. easy_money

    easy_money Low-Roller

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    Not to say your brother was lying or the story was untrue, but it just doesn't add up. If the pit boss thought your brother was "cheating", she would've took his money. Or if the hand was not placed or set up correctly, it would have been a fouled hand and dealer would've took the money too. Like your brother, I've been playing PGP for quite a while and it's pretty much the only game I play. I've had that hand several times with pair Aces and no top. There's been quite a few times where I split the Aces, given that I have at least one other picture card. But I usually base my decision on after looking at the cards of the players next to me, or if all of my friends are playing at the same table as me and then I can ask or look at their cards, done conspicuously of course. Nonetheless, I've done it myself and seen that done plenty of times by other players. Either the pit boss was an idiot and new to PGP or there was some kind of misunderstanding.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2014
  4. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    Sounds like the only resolution is going to be to call gaming enforcement and have the tapes reviewed.
     
  5. C0usineddie

    C0usineddie VIP Whale

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    I usually dont be much stock in one sided stories such as these.
     
  6. alexanbo

    alexanbo High-Roller

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    Any chance it was the dragon hand? That can have some rules where you have to set it house way as it's played after you've already played your own hand.
     
  7. buckeyetodd

    buckeyetodd Low-Roller

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    don't know if it was a dragon hand.

    by playing aa with a q 10, he lost the hand, had he played a q with a a 10, he would have pushed

    my brother is a lot of things, but a liar or exaggerator he is not.

    I can't imagine this would be possible, but I told him to get mgm to review the tape and find out who was playing with him and get their version.

    as far as the cheating comment, he said she went on and on about the mgm being a business in the business of making money and allowing players to cheat.....

    I'm just repeating a story, that's all
     
    gonna be a two royal trip!!
  8. Okie21

    Okie21 Low-Roller

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    I completely can see this happening. I've heard pit bosses say ridiculous things...
     
  9. sindustry

    sindustry VIP Whale

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    Nevermind...i misread.

    Now, as for the pit telling him he is cheating for splitting aces...total nonsense!
     
  10. dutchvelvet

    dutchvelvet VIP Whale

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    The pit in question was probably not familiar enough with Pai Gow Poker. She was thinking of the fouled hand rule, but misapplying it. The statement regarding "cheating" is also inappropriate. AFAIK, fouling your hand isn't cheating, its a forfeit of the bet.

    Where I'm from, the newer pits routinely have to check their reference sheets for Pai Gow Poker questions so it doesn't surprise me that one would make a rule mistake. Now, if your brother actually set his hand splitting the aces and the hand proceeded to resolution, he is owed $50 because he didn't foul. The outcome should be verifiable on the tapes. If he was just talked out of setting that way by the pit, I think the report to the supervisor was the appropriate way.

    All that said, I think that in the long run splitting a pair of Aces is not a good idea.
     
  11. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    If you were the supervisor, would you believe the pit boss or the player? She denied it. The only way to get resolution is call gaming enforcement, IMO.
     
  12. dutchvelvet

    dutchvelvet VIP Whale

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    Personally, if I was the Casino manager I would check the tape and ask the dealer before coming to a conclusion. I'm surprised that the player didn't just take the $50 offered by the house, that was the right result. My previous post was unclear as to the gaming commission: if the hand was actually set and then the push was denied it ought to be reported. If player was just talked out of setting a particular way by a pit, I don't know that there is a remedy there.
     
  13. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    Ah... I assumed that the set hand was discovered when determining the outcome since the player sets his hand and the way it's set is usually only revealed to the dealer when she picks it up to determine the outcome. If they refused to pay push the hand for cheating at that point, it's definitely a gaming enforcement issue.

    If he was simply talked out of a play, then he should have just gotten his $50 back and learned a lesson.
     
  14. buckeyetodd

    buckeyetodd Low-Roller

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    just talked to my brother for update on the facts...

    he said he had not set his hand. during play, the pit boss had been standing there and they had been talking about the game. he got dealt the hand, said to her that some people wouldn't play the hand this way but he felt he had a better chance of NOT LOSING by splitting his aces. she then said that if you do that, i will take your $55 because that would be cheating. still not sure what she thought the cheating was but i wasn't sitting there.

    as far as the $50 is concerned, the supervisor was going to give it back to my brother. during the conversation between all of them, the supervisor said that he had known this pit boss for a long time and he couldn't see her lying about something like this. of course this pissed my brother off and he said to the supervisor, then you think i am lying over $50? he said the supervisor had a smirk on his face the entire time, almost in a condescending kind of way. he asked my brother what more do you want, she has apologized and i am willing to give you back your money. my brother said no one has apologized and if i'm lying, why are you giving me back my money. supervisor said do you want the money or not, my brother said to jam it up your ass (in so many words).

    once again, just what i've been told.

    todd
     
    gonna be a two royal trip!!
  15. merlin

    merlin VIP Whale

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    Just because people rise to supervisor doesn't make them smart, obviously she was wrong, perhaps she was confused with the difference between the dealers rules to set their hands and the players? Your friend should have taken the money offered, learned his lesson and moved on to a better casino.Getting mad and frustrated accomplishes nothing but ruin your day, not the casinos' - they dont care.
     
  16. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    So according to your brother playing AQ and AT was a push, but AA and QT was a loss? I wonder how often that happens. It can't be very often.

    It shocks me that the chick had been in the business 30 years though. Shouldn't people working that long know the rules of the game?
     
  17. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    Your brother should understand that if a casino believed everyone who had claimed to have been cheated out of a bet, they'd be out of business.

    It's one of the reasons they have cameras.
     
  18. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    I'll bet it happens all the time.

    There are a ton of hands between QT and AT.
     
  19. dooner

    dooner High-Roller

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    You are right that splitting aces is not a good idea in the long run - I'm about 50 - 50 for the results - the majority of the time, the result would not have changed by splitting, however, for the few times that the outcome was not the same, I've won/lost as many as I would have pushed.

    But...... I tend to split when my top hand has no face cards.

    House way is so safe, however, a bit boring!!!
     
  20. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    But when the top hand is no pair too or even AK? But it sounds like my sense over paigow hands are probably off. I barely have played the game. I just know unpaired hands only show up in 7 card stud about 15% of the time. So about 85% of the time he's losing at least one half of the bet. But you're right, AQ is a lot stronger than QT for the bottom. It's probably closer than it feels like to me.
     
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