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Borgata suing Phil Ivy for 9.9 million.

Discussion in 'Non-Vegas Hotels & Casinos' started by jerseyguy, Apr 11, 2014.

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  1. jerseyguy

    jerseyguy VIP Whale

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    Poker Pro Phil Ivy who grew up in the next town over from where I grew up , being sued for cheating casino out of 9.6 million bucks. Allegedly read the patterns on back of cards at baccarat table. Also got busted in London for doing the same thing (allegedly).Casino refused to pay him . Also named is card manufacturer.
     
  2. dvandentop

    dvandentop VIP Whale

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    Nice well dan bilzerian says ivy is broke supposedly good luck collecting. Wonder how noticeable card markings were
     
  3. hammie

    hammie VIP Whale

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  4. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Noticeable enough when you are playing mini-baccarat with a CSM and instructing the dealer to "edge sort" for you.

    A good description of "edge sorting" is found here.

    http://apheat.net/2012/06/28/what-is-edge-sorting/
     
  5. Busyman

    Busyman VIP Whale

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    The casino complied with Ivey's requests.

    It should be thrown out. Unless Ivey conspired with the dealers, this is sour grapes.

    It's casino's job to inspect their cards for defects.
     
  6. NickyDim

    NickyDim VIP Whale

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    When Harrahs AC introduced their new cards (a white edge all around before the pattern starts) I said to the dealer that these new cards can't be edge sorted. Just as a comment. But boy did I get the evil eye from the pit boss for even saying it.

    sortable
    [​IMG]

    non sortable
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    Casinos are supposed to inspect their machines too but if there is a defect they don't have to pay out on a jackpot. In fact, I think under regulations they aren't even allowed to pay out a jackpot due to a defect. The regulatory body is there to protect the integrity of the games and that cuts both way. So I imagine the casino's lawsuit cites gaming regulations in addition to any other laws (if any).
     
  8. Busyman

    Busyman VIP Whale

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    Cuts both ways? Not likely that joeshmoe will know of a defect in say a slot machine. Meanwhile the payouts or lack of payout benefit the casino.

    Also, Ivey already got paid. This is sour grapes. Had Ivey lost, the casino wouldn't say a peep.
     
  9. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    Agreed that its unlikely the average Joe will know if there is a defect screwing him over, but that doesn't mean the integrity of the game isn't supposed to be protected for both parties - i.e. neither side should gain or lose from a defect. The average Joe does have the right to call the gaming board to file a complaint if they think they were cheated. KingBBinLV has posted a few stories on this board where he called the board and had a dispute resolved in his favor.

    This is a civil issue, its not measured the same way it would be if they were trying to go after him criminally. If Borgata or the state was trying to press criminal charges against him I'd feel like that was bullshit since all he did was take advantage of a defect that he didn't create. But that isn't the case.
     
  10. Turtleman

    Turtleman VIP Whale

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    HOLY CRAP!!! I never even heard of edge sorting until this morning and am totally dumbfounded that I hadn't noticed card back irregularities before! I just examined some real casino cards (with the drilled holes) and … well, I'll leave it at that.
     
  11. sindustry

    sindustry VIP Whale

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    Asymmetrical cards have been known in the industry for a long time now. Casinos make changes to their dealing procedures to negate the possibility of exploitment. Everyone up and down the chain of gaming at Borgata should have been aware of the flaws of those cards and should have already had procedures in place. whoever gave the ok to let Ivey have his demands should be fired.
     
  12. Turtleman

    Turtleman VIP Whale

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    I usually play two-deck pitch games and will certainly pay a lot closer attention to the card backs and dealer shuffling. Thinking back, however, I can't say I've ever noticed the dealer rotating clumps of cards. I have a lot more reading and observing to do.
     
  13. Busyman

    Busyman VIP Whale

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    There'd also have to be proof he benefited from the defect vs. good play. Again, the defect is not the fault of Ivey.

    I understand the casino going after the card maker. This is also not like a case of a slot machine paying 100% of the time either.
     
  14. Terry Benedict

    Terry Benedict VIP Whale

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    So Borgata knew he had issues with the London casino and still allowed their dealer to comply with Ivey's dealing requests based on "superstition"? They get what they deserve, losing $9 million.

    I can't remember how much of a card is exposed by the CSM before dealing. And I don't understand baccarat enough to know how an advantage can be taken by knowing the first card. My novice opinion is a player would have 25% knowledge of the hand.

    And kudos to Mr. Ivey for being such a badass baccarat player he can turn 25% of a hand into $9 million. And for being such a badass poker player he can bluff a casino into playing the game his way.
     
  15. leo21

    leo21 VIP Whale

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    If Ivey cheated then shame on him. But it's hard to feel sorry for casinos in AC if they keep letting high rollers take them to the cleaners by giving them the edge with special table rules. I also wonder if this is something you can take advantage of in BJ because the situation reminds me of Don Johnson. At any rate, AC looks desperate and that's not going to draw business.
     
  16. Busyman

    Busyman VIP Whale

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    Explain his "cheat".

    That's like saying counting cards is cheating.

    Casinos can tell you to GTFO at any point for any reason so, as far I'm concerned, again, this is sour grapes.

    I mean, after the first 1 mill, it didn't occur to anyone to tell Ivey to piss off?

    The same with London. Pay the man and learn next time.

    This isn't even as bad as an NBA player traveling and scoring the game winner or Seattle holding the hell out of a defensive back long enough for Russell Wilson convert 3rd down....both with no calls by the refs.

    In the Vegas and London cases, Ivey made a request and casinos said, "ok". They lost and now it's not ok.
     
  17. leo21

    leo21 VIP Whale

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    I don't know if he did cheat. I only 60% understand what he is being accused of. I am just pointing out that NJ casinos seem to be bitchy whiners and it's a bad look.
     
  18. johnvic

    johnvic VIP Whale

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    In the latest episode of the Gambling with an Edge Podcast they discuss what Phil Ivey did and did not do.
     
    Super Bowl Weekend for a Bachelor Party!
  19. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    Trying to decide whether or not he cheated and whether or not its "sour grapes" is a waste of time. When you're dealing with millions of dollars nothing is sour grapes, its about money. He WILL have to pay it back, or at least there will be a judgment against him for it. Even in the recent headline grabbing video poker glitch case the civil charges were a slam dunk and the casinos got the money back. It was the criminal charges that were bogus and worth talking about.

    You can find an endless list of cases where casinos recovered or never had to pay out wins from the result of a defective game. Try to find ones where that wasn't the case. Maybe you'll have better luck than me.

    The fact is the gaming commissions are supposed to uphold the integrity of the games, whether that helps the player or hurts him should be irrelevant. Personally that is the type of neutrality I'd hope to see from regulators, because if you want them to abandon that principle in cases where the defect helps you than don't cry if they abandon it when the defect hurts you.
     
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