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Table Games Blackjack Gurus....

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Zapisocki, Jan 28, 2016.

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  1. Zapisocki

    Zapisocki Tourist

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    Interesting question, and for the life of me I can't find any data on it...

    We play a non hole card game, and if you double or split against a dealers ace and they make a BJ you only loose your first wager....

    When faced with a pair or face cards vs a dealer A, I am tempted to split to draw the potential face cards knowing I am only risking one bet.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    20 is way too powerful to split. And you're risking 2 bets any time they don't have a blackjack.
     
  3. broncofn

    broncofn VIP Whale

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    Are you playing european rules? Only non hole card/ no second card game i have played in blackjack are in the carribean like Aruba and Puerto Rico which are european rules.

    Hate the game myself but maybe because im used to the US rules.
     
  4. blackjacker2

    blackjacker2 Low-Roller

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    I play non hole card in the UK and you would lose all bets against a dealer blackjack, unless you have one hand and it is a blackjack, in which case you push.

    Unless you are a highly skilled card counter, never split 10s, against an Ace you are just asking fro trouble. In the UK that would be a crazy decision, can't speak for elsewhere.
     
  5. thefish2010

    thefish2010 Low-Roller

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    This rule does not make splitting tens a mathematically positive decision. Click here if you want to learn about the "illustrious 18" - the top 18 basic strategy deviations that are mathematically positive if you are card counting. Learning when to take insurance (where offered) is the most valuable deviation, followed by when to stand on hard 15/16 vs dealer 10. Splitting 10's is done with the right count, but only vs a 5 or 6.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2016
  6. TOWNSVILLE

    TOWNSVILLE Low-Roller

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    What you are describing is OBBO as explained on the Wizard of Odds site.Always check this site for gambling odds for all types of games.Here in Townsville at my local and only casino,this rule exists.It catches my by surprise every time it happens,several years playing experience.l thought it was only an Australian thing,obviously l was wrong.Splitting tens to get two bad hands out of one,good luck with that one.Again l repeat,check Wizard of Odds site.Best of Luck to you.
     
  7. TOWNSVILLE

    TOWNSVILLE Low-Roller

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    Sorry thefish2010 followed your link after making my reply.Seems like we both are on the same page when it comes to BJ.
     
  8. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

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    From a "basic strategy" point of view, the "no hole card" game is to played exactly the same as a standard game. So no - no splitting tens ever.
    Now, as for the count - yes, there are some circumstances when that may be the correct play - but only on very positive counts & against a dealer crap card (like a 5... or on a 6 on in H17 game).

    Personally? I will never split 10s or 5s...no matter what the count is or what the dealer-upcard is. I love 20s way too much to ever risk breaking one up... and the two 5s? Sorry, but that's almost always an automatic double for me...often even against a dealer Ace.
     
    Finally have the room booked! Look for me Feb 21-23
  9. Zapisocki

    Zapisocki Tourist

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    Canadian..

    Thanks everyone, I went to Shacklefords web page and looked at his FBBJ BS chart for 10's against a dealers Ace as it is pretty much the same scenario. "Mathematical Mike" says don't split so I won't split.

    I may, for entertainment purposes only, on rare occasion (playing heads up), split if the TC is +5 or better.

    Thanks everyone.
     
  10. Bondy3

    Bondy3 Low-Roller

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    if you have TT vs A,, if you split it kills your EV by nearly 30%, dont do it
     
  11. notfromconcentrate

    notfromconcentrate Low-Roller

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    Here's the thing... what the OP is talking about is an American variation of the ENHC (European No Hole Card) rule - that is, that split and double wagers are not lost in the case of dealer blackjack upon dealer's second card being drawn (whereas in European casinos, all bets will lose, and this is not a very fun way to play).

    While the math on the surface may dictate that splitting TT v A loses 30% of EV, consider this... the additional wager that is being put up is almost like a free bet. That is, if the dealer pulls blackjack, the hand won't lose even if it's a 12. Of course, if the player gets 17 and dealer pulls 19, they lose and would have given up a pat 20 in doing so, but bear with me here.

    The fact is that if the count is high enough, the next card due to come out is very likely to be a T. If you split T and T, you've created two opportunities for that T come out, not only giving you a 20 on at least one of the hands, but also basically robbing the dealer of the T that would have given them blackjack.

    More particularly, if you've got $25 on a TT v A, and the next card is a T, your $25 bet loses. But if you put up an additional $25 to have T_ and T_ v A, you'll have TT for 20, whatever the next hand is, and then one less T in the deck that could possibly give the dealer a blackjack. If they do pull blackjack, the second hand doesn't lose its bet (assuming the player hasn't hit and busted on it) and only the first bet will lose - which you would have lost anyway had you stayed at 20. The best possible situation here, obviously, is that both T's will get A's... or they'll be drawn to whatever total and the dealer will either have a lesser hand than the two players' hands or even better, bust.

    All I'm trying to say is that a strategic split of T's can be an excellent defensive maneuver in this situation, assuming you anticipate a T coming out.
     
  12. Bondy3

    Bondy3 Low-Roller

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    In the American version you won't have the option to split against a blackjack because you would have already lost. Splitting 10 against an ace is still a horrible play. You can't predict you will get a ten and an ace is the best card for the dealer.

    Splitting 10 is only good against a 5 or 6 if your counting cards and the deck is rich in 10s. And by rich I mean a true count of 4 against a 6 and 5 against a 5. So against an ace this is ALWAYS a bad idea
     
  13. notfromconcentrate

    notfromconcentrate Low-Roller

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    What I'm saying is it's the American version of ENHC, where the dealer gets one card (and therefore blackjack can only happen after all player hands are played). In the American version of ENHC, split/double bets don't lose to dealer blackjack (e.g. I split 88 against dealer A, and get 8T,8T, and dealer pulls T for blackjack, only my first bet on the first 8 will lose, whereas the split bet will push) whereas in the European version of ENHC, all bets will lose (e.g. I split 88 against dealer A, and get 8T,8T and dealer pulls T for blackjack, all of my bets will go to the house).

    When American ENHC is being played, if the dealer is showing A, the player can still influence the outcome of the dealer's hand, because they only have an A... it's not known whether or not they'll pull a T - which is why I'm saying that a split may be advantageous in this case, because the T that would have been destined for the dealer's A by standing on TT will then have gone to the first split T, thus preventing a basically certain dealer blackjack.

    I believe that what you think I meant is the American style of blackjack where there is a hole card and dealer blackjack is instant. In which case - indeed, you are correct that splitting anything would be impossible. Any version of ENHC has very different strategy to it, however, as a player's decision to hit/stand/split will much more greatly affect the dealer's hand.
     
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