1. Welcome to VegasMessageBoard
    It appears you are visiting our community as a guest.
    In order to view full-size images, participate in discussions, vote in polls, etc, you will need to Log in or Register.

Table Games Blackjack Counting

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by itssusanne, Jan 11, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. itssusanne

    itssusanne Tourist

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    12
    This may be a crazy question, but for those of us who cant seem to keep up counting the cards when playing BJ: Have you ever been at a table when you
    thought someone was counting? Why not just mirror their betting habits, with your own limits and let them do the work?
     
  2. agentq

    agentq Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    121
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    I've sat at many a table where someone "appeared" to be counting but ended up just betting erratically in a coincident manner. :) I would not rely on a stranger's betting patterns for anything
     
  3. itssusanne

    itssusanne Tourist

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    12
    There is that possiblity!
     
  4. Malibugolfer

    Malibugolfer High-Roller

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    785
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    100
    What's the point? You'd have to be 100% sure they were counting and the only way to do that is to be able to count down a 6d shoe yourself.
    Otherwise you could be just following some lemming off a cliff.
     
  5. Gamesman

    Gamesman VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    1,216
    Location:
    San Diego
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    30
    I'll be that lemming! I often bet erratically.
     
  6. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,664
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    82
    Actually, I have advised this very thing to friends who do not want to mess with counting.
    I tell them to try to track at least a little while. Watch when other players either reduce or increase their bets.
    If those bet changes coincide with the remaining deck being either 10-rich or 10-poor - and the pattern is consistent, then it is reasonable to follow their betting pattern.

    If you're not going to count yourself, then this is certainly more trustworthy than using any other method to determine a change to your bet size.

    Of course, I also tell them to only play 2-deck games.
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  7. Malibugolfer

    Malibugolfer High-Roller

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    785
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    100
    Topcard, if they are not going to mess with counting, but still try and keep track of cards, then perhaps using an A-5 count system might be the best of both worlds.
     
  8. MikeOPensacola

    MikeOPensacola VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    2,956
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    55
    After years of counting, 30+, all I can say is that counting is a hell of a lot easier than getting away with it.
     
    Annual Summer Bliss in the Land of Milk and Honey!!!
  9. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,664
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    82
    Malibu... none of my Vegas buddies wants to worry about counting...using any kind of count.
    But it's certainly easy enough to spot a player who varies his bets & notice whether or not he's doing so after a run of little cards or ten-cards.
    I can usually spot a counter at my tables, and it's always a bit amusing to see the differences in our bumps... I typically jump from my $10 base bet to $15 or $20 on a +2 or +3. Others typically jump a bit more than I do.
    Mike - really? I know we've had this discussion before, but remind me - how many units are you spreading? Is this two decks or six? $10 tables, or $25+?
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  10. meyers67

    meyers67 High-Roller

    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Messages:
    705
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    30
    I totally agree. I learned and practiced counting to get to 100% accuracy on the hi-lo system. Next trip to Vegas, I get pulled aside and told not to play blackjack, but they said I could still play slots and craps. Nice guys.
     
  11. waspie

    waspie Tourist

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2007
    Messages:
    9
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    12
    I don't count religiously but generally have a sense of the count.

    I was once playing DD heads-up with the dealer. Halfway through my session, a guy sat down at the table and started talking to the dealer, but not playing. seems that he'd been backed off from playing BJ the day before for counting.

    Anyway, we start up a conversation and suddenly, he tells me to bet big cos the count is running good. He proceeded to count the rest of the deck down as I played it - short term variance was on my side and I cleaned up.

    The funny thing is that he couldn't have been more blatant about telling me when to swing for the fences and the dealer really couldn't have cared less. I was tipping well so the tip box benefited as well.

    I was wary that there may have been some element of a scam going on, but he was very clear on his counting. He left, wished me good luck and didn't ask for anything. His parting words to me was along the lines of the reason why he got backed off and I didn't is because when he asked me to bet big, I put out a $x,xxx bet. and when it was time for him to bet big, he was betting $xx,xxx....
     
  12. bardolator

    bardolator Lifelong Low Roller

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,426
    Location:
    Green, Ohio
    I have played at tables at which others were counting. I have counted and been copycatted by another player. In both instances, I will play a short while and leave the table.

    If I am at a table with punters (players who vary their wagers at random), I will stay. Punters are fun, and they might even provide a little cover.
     
  13. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,664
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    82
    Meyers... hi...
    Quick couple of questions:
    Which casino backed you off, what was your spread, what was the table-minimum & how many decks?
    TIA
    :beer:
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  14. MikeOPensacola

    MikeOPensacola VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    2,956
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    55
    Top, I don't have much of a problem now mainly because my spread is 1-5 in shoe games and 1-4 in DD games. Back in the 80s and 90s I was a lot more aggressive 1-10 and was spotted quite easily.

    One time at LVC, in about 1986, I was at a $1 table and tried a little experiment. I wanted to see how hard I could go before being backed off. I was betting $1 waiting for the count to go sky high. After a long time the count went from like +2 to like +13 and my next bet was $100. The dealer yelled "Black action!!!" (I'd never heard that term until then) and the floorman came over. I did that one more time and that was it, I was asked not to play. I expected to be backed off and it is to this day one of my favorite Las Vegas memories.

    I guess what I meant by not getting away with it is that it's really tough to get around the countermeasures that didn't exist back in the day and have to play with lower spreads than I'd like to. The 1-100 thing was just a lark, I knew I'd draw heat. Currently I have a difficult time getting away with 1-8 spreads, which is my comfort zone. I absolutely refuse to make cover plays so this might be part of the problem.

    I still thoroughly enjoy BJ, and counting, but my attitude is much more casual that it was 20 years ago. It really doesn't bother me that I have to play with lower spreads as I play more now for pleasure and relaxation then when I was in my uber-competitive mode when I was younger.

    The thing that grinds me is that now my bankroll has gotten to the point where it can support wild spreads there is no way to get away with doing so. Still, BJ is a great game and I thank my lucky stars,that as a 20 year old sailor, while browsing through a bookstore,
    I purchased a copy of Ken Uston's "Million Dollar Blackjack".
     
    Annual Summer Bliss in the Land of Milk and Honey!!!
  15. meyers67

    meyers67 High-Roller

    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Messages:
    705
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    30
    Double deck at Mirage. Start at 2 x $25. Drop to 1 x $25 on a negative count and as high as 2 x $300 as the count gets big.
     
  16. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,664
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    82
    That explains a lot.
    I've heard that the $25 2-deck S17 game at the Mirage is a counter's trap. Lot's of scrutiny.
    But, also, spreading 1 unit ($50) to 12 ($600), is pretty aggressive for a two deck game.
    Perhaps I've become too wimpy, but I pretty much stick to a 1-4 spread...ever-so-rarely going to 5 units, and never playing two hands.
    No heat... a few pits come by and watch for awhile from time to time, but that's it.
    I do make cover plays, and I realize that a lot of actual advantage players (I'm not one) won't typically do that.
    I also tip dealers & periodically play the sucker side-bet (Lucky Ladies being the most common).
    A few cover plays, plus a periodic dealer tip & a few sucker bets, on top of only spreading 1-4... I haven't been backed-off in almost 20 years.
    Of course, the downside is that, while I typically win, it's never very much.
    I'm ok with that...I still find it fun, even at my low-limit level of play.
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  17. meyers67

    meyers67 High-Roller

    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Messages:
    705
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    30
    Spreading 1-4 at what betting level? That matters too.
     
  18. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,664
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    82
    I typically play a $10 betting unit (90% of the time), but I will do greens sometimes as well.
    I use the same 1-4 spread with a $25 unit.

    In 78 trips, I can count the sessions I've bet blacks (as a betting unit) on one hand, but as I recall, I only spread 1-3 during those times. (Fear).
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  19. Old Salty

    Old Salty Tourist

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Messages:
    56
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    I use a bet progression strategy when I catch a streak because I'm just not smart enough to keep a count. Have taken $10 or $25 base unit to as much as $1500 many times in Vegas or Louisiana and never been backed off. Only questioned once at MGM. Of course I keep a basic strategy card in front of me as well because I can't remember all the Doubles and splits either. They must watch your eyes, otherwise I'm sure I would have gotten into trouble. I don't get it. A spread from $10 to $100 doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.
     
  20. pleepleus

    pleepleus 2016 - The monkey is back

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    2,339
    Location:
    Hanging around
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    100
    My friend bets like he is a card counter, but doesn't win like one. I think the properties have come to the conclusion that he just sucks at gambling.
     
Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.