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BJ Table Computer Tracker - good or bad?

Discussion in 'Comps' started by Ezzy711, Dec 29, 2012.

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  1. Ezzy711

    Ezzy711 Low-Roller

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    I apologize if this was mentioned before, I have not see it. I just got back from the Beau Rivage and at one of the 4 blackjack tables at which I sat had a computer system to keep track of players, time in, time out, buy in and cash out. They swipe your players card, enter your buy in and press your seat number. The dealers theyselves also have to swipe their cards when they swap for breaks and shifts. Apparently it is fairly new as the dealers didn't seem to know how to complete some of the functions. At one point I was sitting at 3rd base and mentioned I was not a good 3rd baseman, the guy next to me said he preferred 3rd base so we swapped seats. The dealer had to call over the pit boss to figure out how to change out seats in the system. She had to reswipe our cards.

    I am not sure how I feel about it. On one hand it is probably fairly accurate (time will tell) but on the other hand some times the pit boss will cut you some slack if you have any sort of relationship.

    Has anyone had experience with these systems and what are your takes on this new version of tracking?
     
  2. C0usineddie

    C0usineddie VIP Whale

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    One can only imagine that if a casino installed it then it is to the players disadvantage. They are in business to take your money. Thats it.

    They will take it all if you give them the chance.

    Of course it probably saves a big pain for them having to manually enter everyone as well so it might play in the average joes favor a tiny bit because they normally would not get their play tracked.
     
  3. Gregsmt

    Gregsmt Low-Roller

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    I would suspect it tracks your bets with RFID chips in the chips so they know exactly what your average bet is for the session. No fudging and it knows how many hands you play etc. at least one casino in my home area does this. The dealer presses a button when they start dealing a hand and the computer senses how many chips are in your betting circle. You do get credit for your big bets if your alter your betting range and the pit boss may not see our biggest bets.
     
  4. gambler

    gambler VIP Whale

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    Some casino downtown also has this where the dealer swipes your card and enters your amount. I've seen the pitboss come along periodically, check the numbers and make adjustments depending on your bet. I think it might be 4 Queen's, but am not certain as I haven't played there for awhile. It could also be El Cortez as those are the only 2 casino's downtown that I rarely play. Can anyone confirm?

    As Cousineddie says, if the casino installed it it must benefit them. The one advantage to players though would be that their play gets tracked from the moment they sit down. There's been many times in a busy casino where my card hasn't even been entered until after I've been at the table for at least 15 minutes or so.
     
  5. atom

    atom High-Roller

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    While I'm sure the casinos install them because they are convinced it is to their advantage, that may or may not make it to the player's disadvantage. Perhaps the advantage of this system is that they do not spend time dealing with questions from players about how they are being rated. Perhaps it allows one pit critter to cover more tables. As a plus, I would imagine that a system like this would end up tracking the play of players betting less than 25 a hand, which pit bosses often cannot be bothered to do.
     
  6. earth-3

    earth-3 High-Roller

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    I'm sure players who are good at getting over rewarded for their play, won't be happy about this.
     
  7. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    They don't use these in Vegas? I guess that shows how long its been since I've been back. These have been fairly common in AC for a while (at least at all the CET casinos, its escaping me right now if they're at Borgata), I just assumed it was everywhere. I don't know the full capabilities of the system, but as of now in AC it is pretty innocent and they've had them in place for years. It doesn't work in conjunction with table sensors or any type of automated tracking system. It essentially just the same tracking system the pit boss used to have at their "desk" in the middle of the pit, but in a simpler version tied to each table. So when the pit boss comes around to get your players card, he swipes it right there and types in your average bet. Then when you leave and color out, since the pit boss usually comes over to verify that transaction, he can just tap you out of the system right there as well. As gambler said, when the pit boss walks around he can adjust your average bet right there if you've changed it or something. I tend to play a 1-6 progression and I often see them come by and look at my bet when its at its max and then tap something out on that computer. I've assumed they're updating my bet, I think I've asked in fact.

    Trust me, I'm no fan of the casinos using more and more technology to track our play and I don't trust that they're going to do much of anything that benefits us more than it benefits them. However, in its present form this tracking system seems to just make it easier for the pit to track your play using the same methodology they've been using. Just now they can directly input the data while walking around from table to table, instead of taking notes by hand and going back to their center console to input everything.
     
  8. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    There are at least two variations that I am aware of, and it looks like folks could be mixing them up.

    A) Terminal there for pit boss to enter your play, and maybe your card depending on version - vs the old way of writing on slips and somebody enters into computer. Still requires a human to determine your play.

    B) Terminal is there, card is swiped and the chips have RFID to track your play a bit closer, way better than a human trying to track your up and down betting.

    Disadvantage or advantage to player? Hard to say. I would think the main reason is for casino to ACCURATELY track play and reduce manpower, and reduce staff inflating your play.
     
  9. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    That's right, I'm talking about version A. As far as I've heard only a few casinos have RFID embedded chips along with table sensors (e.g. Wynn/Aria). I remember before checking out of Wynn one day I asked the players desk what my average bet for the trip had been and they had it down to the dollar, something like $177 LOL....without the RFID the pit would've probably just bumped it up to an even $200. Oh well....
     
  10. rgerards

    rgerards Low-Roller

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    Pretty sure they can also track betting patterns to try and flush out card counters
     
  11. Goosey

    Goosey Low-Roller

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    I think Vegas is heading towards the direction where your bets are tracked. Didn't someone say Aria has sensors on some tables? The biggest issue would be the ability of the computer/system to recognize when a player switches from playing one hand to two hands and splits. With that said, there are people who prefer pit boss discretion (I like it). Others can't stand being underrated and prefer to be rated accurately.
     
  12. paperposter

    paperposter VIP Whale

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    aria has something like it.dealer swips your card and somehow your bet is tracked
     
  13. Ike

    Ike Low-Roller

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    If you are not a card counter, and you do not play in the high limit room but also do not flat bet table minimums and like to vary your bets, this is probably good for you....at least in the short term. I'll bet at least 9 out of 10 people playing in the main pit are being underrated simply because the pit managers do not pay attention to your play.
     
  14. Big Tip

    Big Tip VIP Whale

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    I would tend to agree with this. I sometimes play a Martingale system. If the floorman is not looking at me when I have a big bet out, like a 16 or 32 unit bet, I have tried to get his attention. "Hey boss, look at the big bet." The RFID system would make that unnecessary.

    I never play that game of going to the bathroom during a shoe, or sitting out a bunch of hands "on a hunch" or any of those type tricks that try to maximize your play time while limiting your exposure. That would be the only type person that is hurt with this.
     
  15. JDinTN

    JDinTN MIA

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    Dealers I've talked to while playing have told me the RFID tracking will be on most table games some day soon and probably would have already been more common if not for the recession. Here is a youtube video with pretty models from over 4 years ago explaining how it works, its in english even though the uploader wrote the title in italian or something :

    [YOUTUBE]xZL-JfxQcYA[/YOUTUBE]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2012
  16. Ike

    Ike Low-Roller

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    This is not true. The cost to casinos is astronomical to implement a true RFID table tracking mechanism. Some casinos use these to track high dollar chips, but not much else. A real, tangible benefit will have to be brought before casino management before RFID chips become mainstream because at this point the cost/benefit to casinos does not make sense. These have been around for quite some time, and at this point they are very much still just a technological novelty to casino management.
     
  17. Film-Noir

    Film-Noir High-Roller

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    Bad=Techololgy, lurking under the Felt.

    Opinon:
    Wow, soo much we as players don't see going on in the shufflers & underneath the felt * we bet on....

    Here you go Pow!
    How about just 1 product from shuffle master
    (not discrete) the *MD3
    here come the Upper-cut Bang !
    the* i-Deal w/its amazing ability to reconstruct hands? really??

    I was going to go into a mad rant, about Technology vs Players a few months ago, Allready approved by N.G.C., simular to this.
    Think the previous Devil in the details was used vs players in the 90's LVH was suit something simular. My ref ill post at the end of this post.

    The danger point now, as technology exists, the Auto/Continious Shuffler w/optical readers that can count cards in real time for B.J.
    when the deck is as much as +2 or +1 auto shuffle, before a player even sees the cards.

    If i remember the NGC, instructed this 1, approved Casino(yes them vs Players, using card counting Against the Players)
    card counting system, that it must only count from -4 hands back or something to prevent real time abuse.
    As realtime Counting technology/Autoshuffle in the casino as far as NGC is concerned would be not allowed.
    Now that being said, as cozy & Secret relationship the N.G.C. & casinos, you have to ask,
    who's the real watchdog here & who's watching the Watchdogs, had fed steak Daily by the casinos.

    My personal pref:

    Abuse threat is real to the players from the casino, of running a rigged game.
    Imagine playing L.I.R. & the auto shuffler never allows a Royal, or 4 of a kind.

    Let's not forget the hackery a few years ago in doping 1000's of Video Poker machines RNG's , not to allow a royal flush to occur.
    so Keep an open mind here.

    I Hate anything Auto-shuffling, that has card readers hooked to any computers, For any reason. PERIOD!

    (Suspiciously looks at the $1,000,000.00 3 card Bonus deal in some Harrah's Properties!)
    & smells some auto-shuffling computer wizardry by going on there.
    /cough... Remeber don't look behind the Curtain, nothing going on here, move along... nothing to see here.................

    Here's an older article about * Mindplay

    Last Thought, Really,
    Oo, almost forgot , just think about this:
    They freak if you even look at a i-phone/technology device at a table,
    Ask yourself,
    Fair-Play-Fair turn Casinos, why don't you (the casino) Disclose, what technology is under the Felt, for a simple game of Black jack???? hmmm'
    Game rules: This table employs an Optic card reader, hooked up to a real time computer that Auto shuffles the deck when it gets hot & players have an advantage vs the casino,, lol Never!
    Good Thread.
     
  18. y2mulder

    y2mulder Low-Roller

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    This is not true. The cost to casinos is astronomical to implement a true RFID table tracking mechanism. Some casinos use these to track high dollar chips, but not much else. A real, tangible benefit will have to be brought before casino management before RFID chips become mainstream because at this point the cost/benefit to casinos does not make sense. These have been around for quite some time, and at this point they are very much still just a technological novelty to casino management.

    THIS. It will be the coldest day in hell before casinos put little satellite transponders into every $1/$5/$25 chip they have. The RFID chips are for the big boys only, I promise.
    ---------

    I would tend to agree with this. I sometimes play a Martingale system. If the floorman is not looking at me when I have a big bet out, like a 16 or 32 unit bet, I have tried to get his attention. "Hey boss, look at the big bet." The RFID system would make that unnecessary.

    Dont bug the critter over your "once an hour" bet because you caught a cold run. He/She knows what you are doing already....and bugging the suits will NOT help you in any way, shape or form.

    If you are playing that system, your small bet is exactly what you deserve for an average anyway.
     
  19. JDinTN

    JDinTN MIA

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    Wrong. They already have them in the $25 chips at Wynn and the prices for RFID technologies have dropped dramatically since 2005 when Wynn first started using them in chips. Look through the products at the Global Gaming Expo site sometime, you see RFID systems everywhere. I know you work in a casino but is it a major high-end strip one? Because that's where all this stuff will roll out first. The dealers at Wynn specifically told me that the RFID was for both security and eventually for automatically rating players. Obviously they wouldn't have put them in little $25 chips for security purposes only, nor $100 chips for that matter at a casino like Wynn. And they're not little satellite transponders, if you think that it's no wonder you think they're excessively cost-prohibitive.
     
  20. hillwood24

    hillwood24 High-Roller

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    I think the RFID is coming down a lot in price. I work for a chain of gas stations that has about 700 stores nationwide and they've moved towards using the RFID chips on their sandwich packages to track exactly how many of each sandwich is sold and to automatically order another sandwich. I can't imagine they'd use these disposable, non reusable RFID chips on a $4 sandwich if they weren't really, really cheap.

    Long story short, shouldn't cost a casino too much to install these in each chip
     
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