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Table Games BJ Shoe vs CSM

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by winner, Mar 25, 2015.

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  1. winner

    winner Low-Roller

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    what are your feelings on a shoe vs CSM I know what the wiz says, I just never seemed to get into a run with a CSM
     
  2. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

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    For me, I cannot count either, so they are very similar as far as I'm concerned...so - based on the math alone, I'd have to say the CSM is a better table for me.
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  3. sindustry

    sindustry VIP Whale

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    I get into runs all the time on CSM...losing runs.

    Seriously, I have had good runs on CSM...the problem is since the only break you get, is when they change cards, I play too long and end up losing. BJ is my last choice of games, but having just played a double deck pitch game last night, and not liking CSM, I would say a shoe game would be my top pick for BJ.
     
  4. broncofn

    broncofn VIP Whale

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    I know it does not make a difference but I always prefer a hand shuffle. In some high limit rooms they have the automatic shufflers and not csm. I always ask the pitboss to do a hand shuffle and they always say ok no problem. I think its just another superstition of mine.
     
  5. BlacklabberMike

    BlacklabberMike VIP Whale

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    about 10 years ago i went to town with 3 buds courtesy of a guy we call T-Bone
    Full RFB, huge suite at Mirage.....
    long story short, he was playing $25 CSM tables and got on a roll.
    i'll preface this that he does not play basic strategy all that well... more of a Wag system (WildAssGuess)
    takes insurance every chance...
    one afternoon he gets on a roll... 3 hours later he is up $38,000 from a $300 buy in....
    the critters turned up the lights, two critters watching, two more behind them..... it was a scene man...

    he quits so we can go to dinner....my portion of the tip was more than if i ate alone...but i digress..
    later than evening he goes back to play again... same scenario buys in for 500 and soon is up 12,000..... holy crap....
    next morning i see him getting ready to play again so i ask if i can ride along and give him 300 toward his buy in as does one of the other guys...
    half our later the 900 is up to 9,000, then to 15,000.... he needed to hit the head, so i said...i'm out, the 5k made my trip as we were leaving later that night...
    he gave me the chips and i was more than happy...
    end of story.. he paid off a 10k marker he started with, bought 15,000 jewelry for his wife and daughter and walked with 90,000 cash.
    best trip of my life.... we ate at every high end restaurant, saw all the shows there....

    i've read that the CSM isn't all that bad , but i am still hesitant... though i did have some good wins at the golden gate... #phobia?
     
  6. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

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    Great story, Mike!
    :beer:
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  7. joshrocker

    joshrocker VIP Whale

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    Loved the story also!

    I'll play a CSM or a shuffled game. I really don't care. My only gripe with the CSM is you get no break. The cards just keep coming. In a game I know i'm going to lose at, I like a forced break on occasion. Plus I really don't like going to the bathroom mid game and the shuffles offer plenty of chances to go. As long as you can double after a split and the blackjacks pay 3/2.....I really don't care how they get the cards to me.
     
  8. srudude87

    srudude87 Tourist

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    My local casino, Rocky Gap in Cumberland MD, switched to all CSMs last fall. It's the only casino I know of that doesn't at least offer a high limit shoe table. I thought I had it figured out, just play two hands, had about 5 winning trips in a row. This year it's just been almost all bad and I'm tired of it. I tried taking a break every 10 minutes to similate a shuffle but that didn't work. I know what they say about the house edge being the same, but it's not really like that. They just seem to make a bad day worse and a good day not as good.
     
  9. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

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    I typically play only two-deck games... but I have played the CSMs at Golden Gate and (a while back) the CSMs at the Mirage.
    In both cases, DAS & LS were permitted, but LS isn't allowed anymore at GG.
    At the Mirage, the tables were S17 (a CSM table & a 6-deck shoe, right by the restrooms).

    When I play CSMs or shoes, I have no problem at all sitting out a hand or two or three, without even getting up. I just wave-off the dealer, jumping back in when I feel like it - which is typically after my cocktail has been delivered & I've tipped the CW.
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  10. Turtleman

    Turtleman VIP Whale

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    I'll echo, "Great story," and thank you for posting. NOW, how about getting T-Bone to post how he did it!!! Seriously, every time I hear of someone buying in for a low amount and then performing what for me would be a miracle, I'm more than a little interested in learning more.:)
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2015
  11. TOWNSVILLE

    TOWNSVILLE Low-Roller

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    Hand shuffle is always better,especially if you can keep count/remember cards that have been dealt.Latest trip to Vegas l watched three Blackjacks being dealt on the first hand of a double deck game.Toilet break for me.CSM like l have here in Australia deal six decks,no hope of knowing what is to come.Having said that,the three Blackjacks cards would have been returned to the mix.Anyway l still seem to loose most of the times l play,always enjoy the game though.
     
  12. synthpop101

    synthpop101 Tourist

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    I recall hearing on the Gambling With an Edge show, Richard Munchkin eluding to a flaw with CSM and that they could be beaten. Something like "If casinos only knew they would remove all the CSM..."

    Any APs out there know what kind of edge you can get with a CSM?

    I personally like hand shuffles but had my most epic run on a CSM...On a cruise ship. The group of 5 of us at the table went on a three hour run where we couldn't loose. By the end of the afternoon, we had a crowd of about 20 people around us and 4 pit bosses all watching.
     
  13. TOWNSVILLE

    TOWNSVILLE Low-Roller

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    Would also love to know if there is any advantage to be had against CSM games.Its all l have got here in Townsville to play against.synthpop101,l had a similar experience here one Sunday night,all at the table just kept winning.Multiplied my buy in by seven,then left.Once in two years play though,leaves a lot of losing sessions.My fault though,l enjoy the game and the company.Hence my losing trip to Vegas,what the hell,sitting in The Four Queens,early in the morning,look around,atmosphere,good company,out comes another hundred from the wallet.Long time dead.:licklips:
     
  14. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

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    I don't consider myself an "advantage player"... (not really), but the "edge" one gets with a CSM (versus a shoe or pitch game) is only when there is no counting taking place and no play or bet modification made as a result of what cards have previously been dealt.
    That "edge" is that the effective "count" remains at zero at the start of every hand.
    In any other game - over any decent amount of time (say, an hour or more) - there are more "negative" count circumstances than "positive" ones - positive enough for you to increase your bet, or change how you would otherwise play a hand.
    So - if you do NOT count cards in any way, the CSM has an edge over every other method, assuming the same number of hands played.

    PS - I should note that ALL "basic strategies" assume a neutral count, however, only the CSM provides one on every hand.
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  15. DavidR82

    DavidR82 Low-Roller

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    Prefer to play shoe or pitch. Playing BS, It seems I bust out more often on a CSM game due to the 10s and face cards being reintroduced to the shuffle so often. I have had some one of best memorable wins playing DD or out of a shoe. I've had some of my worst losses playing a CSM.
     
  16. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

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    David - I'm with you... I prefer two-deck to any other blackjack available.
    I like being able to rationally increase or lower my bet based on the prevelance of 10s dealt on the last couple of hands.
    If see 10 cards come out with zero tens on a CSM, it means absolutely nothing. The count is till "zero".
    If I see 10 cards come out on a 6-deck shoe or on a two-deck game - with no tens, I can (and will) bet more!

    But - if I'm a bit too drunk to keep track...or just don't feel like it for any other reason (like being there with several friends & we all want to play at the same table), I will gladly sit at a CSM...and I would prefer so over a shoe (assuming all other rules are the same).

    I'll go one step further - a full CSM table is usually "better" than a full two-deck table, since I can only rarely realize any benefit from counting a two deck game that only gets 2 hands per shuffle.
    A two-deck game - one that permits DAS - and has, at most, 3-4 total players - that is better than any other game format.
    Perfect two-deck to me is two players, maybe three + the dealer... and that's plentiful enough to easily find downtown.
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  17. BayouBengal

    BayouBengal VIP Whale

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    It works the other way too. The low cards are being reintroduced just as well.
     
  18. Film-Noir

    Film-Noir High-Roller

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    CSM vs Mindplay vs Open Shoe

    This thread comes up once in a while.

    I love an Open shoe, always.

    Ever wonder why the Plastic Shoe is colored?
    To indicate to the casino if cards have been Dobbed.
    /puts away colored glasses..

    A CSM by it self isn't bad.
    But when it's (CSM) hooked up to an optical reader, attached to a card counting computer & tracks the count
    and Auto shuffles when the count is biased vs the Casino.
    You have something similar to the :grrr:"Mindplay":grrr: system, that is definitely biased vs the players.

    I distrust any computer equipment, hooked to any CSM for any reason, but such is the day and should
    always be disclosed on the felt, to all players at that BJ table.

    Stanford Wong, has discussed the Computerization at length & knows way more than I do.:nworthy:
    /Defer to the master.
     
  19. bardolator

    bardolator Lifelong Low Roller

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    I thought it was called "continuous" because the shuffling was continuous. Not so? I dislike the idea of a CSM and have never played at a table that uses one. No mathematical reason- just a matter of preference.
     
  20. MikeOPensacola

    MikeOPensacola VIP Whale

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    Bingo. Well said.
     
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