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Bait and Switch on Comp Stay at MGM

Discussion in 'Comps' started by 3544quebec, Oct 7, 2013.

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  1. 3544quebec

    3544quebec Low-Roller

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    Background
    - I live in Australia so only get to Vegas once, maybe twice a year
    - had a host at MGM for a couple of years who treated me well : limos, full RFB and suite (once even had 2 night stay in Skyloft which I am sure my level of play did not support)
    - never abused the FB comps - rarely more than $100/day as I was travelling solo
    - Was Black then Platinum for 4-5 years until down to Gold this month, hadn't actually been back to an MGM resort in the last 2 years until 2 months ago when put on about 90000 TCs in 2 single day visits to MGM and Tunica (not staying at the properties)

    I had an offer on my Mlife page for 3-5 nights in room/suite depending on property chosen at all LV properties including $400 FP, $200 F+B and 2 complimentary tickets to Love

    I rang the VIP desk at the MGM listed on the website offer and asked them to check what offers I had available and after a minute on hold was told they were transferring me to a host.

    The host came on and I explained that I had a host a couple of years ago but he hadn't responded to an email I had sent prior to my visit 2 months ago - the new host told me that my old host had been promoted and was now the boss so perhaps had not received my email.

    New host said that he would be happy to look after me going forward and would provide the same comp benefits as previously specifically stating limo/suite/full RFB for 2 people so I went ahead and booked a 4 night stay for 2 people this stay.

    I emailed him a day later saying I didn't need the limo as I was renting a car but asked if he could organise 2 tickets to Ka - didn't receive a response to that request.

    Arrived at hotel and given a Spa Suite (with view over Hooters :licklips: ) but was told at check-in that $600 FB was included - now $150/day for 2 people covers a 2 course meal and glass of wine each at most of the mid-range MGM restaurants.

    If I had been told that we were limited to $150/day for FB I don't think I would have even bothered with the whole host thing but just gone with the Mlife offer with 2 Love tickets and $400 FP/$200 FB.

    I was not impressed and as a consequence played next to nothing at MGM this trip (13000 TCs in 4 days). Perhaps i won't have to worry about being ripped off by a host again after that :nono:

    PS my new host was off the day I arrived and I didn't bother trying to contact him the next 3 days as quite frankly I prefer to talk with my feet or in the case of casinos with my fingers.
     
  2. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    this isn't bait and switch, this is the new RFB. too many people abused the limitless RFB in the old days that these days RFB always has a limit. usually it's more like $350 per day, but just depends on the player. but it's always a fixed amount.

    but if you had an offer with FP and 2 tickets to LOVE, you should have asked the host for it. however, that offer was only $200 F&B and $400 FP and you got $600 F&B, so it's pretty much the same thing assuming you used all your F&B.

    I don't think you really had a reason to no-play the guy. people that do what you did is the exact reason the host only gave you $150/day upfront.
     
  3. 3544quebec

    3544quebec Low-Roller

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    I would respectfully suggest that being told full RFB for 2 people and then being limited to $150/day if not bait and switch is certainly very misleading. $300/day is reasonable. $150/day would not allow two people to eat at the the buffet for 3 meals. An omelette/coffee/juice at the 24 hr restaurant is $50 for 2. In no reasonable way could $75/person be described as full RFB- a F+B allowance yes, full RFB no.

    It would seem you respond to posts without rally reading them carefully - as I stated I sent an email requesting a couple a of tickets to Ka but didn't receive a response. To me what I received was not what I was offered and certainly not what my previous host had provided me (he specifically told me my RFB covered all restaurants but the two Roubichons and I'm sure the new host had access to all the info that demonstrated that i had not abused the comps provided previously. But hey if you prefer to see thing s solely from the casino's point of view and don't feel there is any justification in me feeling aggrieved that's fine. It seems a rather jaundiced view to me.
     
  4. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    Sorry for you situation.

    But, over the past two years or so, the whole RFL/RFB thing changed considerably. After being on some RFL myself with unlimited food and drink (not not at top tier restaurants), we were shocked when we found out about a $$ limit. Happened to many others.

    Sadly, they still use those terms but fail to share the dollar limits. For some people, it still comes out to unlimited because they either do not eat/drink too much and/or play enough to cover it anyways.

    Sorry you did not see some of the postings that have been on this message board about it.

    Not so much BAIT and SWITCH, but just a change in policies.
     
  5. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    I did read that. so the guy is a bad host for not responding. but that's not bait and switch as he never offered you the tickets.

    yes, that's how it used to be a couple of years ago. that's just not the way it works anymore. there's always a limit now.

    I do agree that $150/day is low, but that is considered RFB nowadays, so there was no bait and switch. the issue is that you didn't know that the rules had changed and so your expectations weren't met.

    what I took issue with is the way you handled it. why not even try to contact the host during your trip and ask about the $150/day limit and tell him that you're disappointed as when he said RFB, you expected more? maybe he or his assistant mis-entered something and he could have fixed it? and then you could have asked him about the Ka tickets at the same time.

    if you had tried to contact him during your trip to get things resolved and failed that would be different. just no-playing and leaving because you didn't get what you expected is like a 5-year old throwing a tantrum because he only got 1 scoop of ice cream instead of 2.

    and the reason I even care is because it's situations like this that screw things over for the rest of us. people no/low playing offers for whatever reason is the exact reason things are getting tighter and tighter and those of us who do put in our play each trip are getting less and less because we have to pick up the slack for those that do what you did.
     
  6. CaptainJack

    CaptainJack Low-Roller

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    If you would have played to the level that they were expecting, your charges would have been taken care of on the back-end. I know nobody ever seems to want to play that way...but that's the way it is. Had you lived up to your end of the bargain and been stuck with charges at the end of your stay then you would have a legitimate complaint that you were promised something and they did not deliver. However, in this case, your implied contract with MGM was to give them play in-line with your recent average.
     
  7. 3544quebec

    3544quebec Low-Roller

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    Well there is nothing in my initial post that claimed anything related to show tickets was the bait and switch - so again it seems clear you haven't really read or understood my post or that you just prefer to argue your view without regard to the facts.

    The reference to a 5 year old throwing a tantrum over an ice-cream is just ridiculous. Different people like to handle things in different ways whether it be being longhauled by a taxi driver or misled by a host. To suggest that the way one person handles a situation is the only valid way of doing so is well just a touch arrogant. Your response to being misled as to the level of comps offered may be to discuss that with your host. My response with a host with whom I have no history is to take my business elsewhere - that is not a tantrum, it is a reasonable response that hopefully will change the unwanted behaviour. If it is not the habit of hosts to spell out what full RFB means , well perhaps it should become the habit especially if there is actually a very wide deviation in what it can mean (anything from $150/day to unlimited it would seem). Responsibilty does not rest solely on the customer.

    I see, so if a host says full RFB for 2 people and says that he will give me the same treatment as I received 2 years ago then it is my responsibility to understand that he doesn't really mean that. The implied contract seems rather one-sided to me if it requires no clarity/honesty on the part of the casino. I didn't strike a bargain that limited upfront F+B to $150/day

    From some of the opinions expressed here it would seem that full RFB could be defined as a croissant and coffee at Starbucks for breakfast and a Coke and burger for lunch and dinner and it would be acceptable for a host to offer full RFB and then restrict it to that.

    It seems we will just have to just disagree as to the level of responsibility of the casino in this implied contract. If a host makes an offer, then the terms should be clear and realistic. I didn't ring the casino seeking out a host, I rang asking about a Casino Marketing offer. They decided to move me onto a host. The host stated he would comp me on the same basis that I had been comped previously by my former host. That was not the reality of what I received on arrival. I feel zero responsibility to chase up the host or to reward the casino fro misleading me. I had better options at other properties and would quite happily have booked elsewhere if the host had during our conversation only offered $150/day F+B credit rather than the stated full RFB for 2 people which I would take as being able to have 3 meals a day with a modest bottle of wine in any but the high end restaurants. I would not have assumed that I could splurge out at Joel Rubuchon's just because I had been told full RFB as that was not the basis of what I had previously received. If there is an expectation that the customer behaves ethically and reasonably why is there not that same expectation of the casino/host?
     
  8. VegasBJ

    VegasBJ VIP Whale

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    Your no playing them and walking is not going to change their behavior, you just made it worse for yourself. They do not know, due to your lack of contact, that they did anything wrong since your rfb limits were discussed at check in. The only thing they see is a comp stay with no play. Even my host tells me $500 / day limit as they have to put in something, but it is always covered later no matter how much rfb I use.
     
  9. Aftermath

    Aftermath Low-Roller

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    So you were upset at them, but yet you did not let them know that.

    In your head you're thinking you're teaching them a lesson, but the truth of the matter is, you just fucked yourself because:

    1) Since you did not complain, they wont ever know they did anything wrong.
    2) You no played them so you can kiss any future comps or offers goodbye.
    3) Their so called "unwanted" behavior will not change and the world will move on.
    4) If you died tomorrow they wouldn't blink an eye. You are not that important to them. Just a fish in a sea of whales.

    I'm sorry, but you threw a tantrum.
     
  10. Someone

    Someone High-Roller

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    1. in terms of casinos 2 years ago may as well have been 200 years ago

    2. I would question if the current host was even able to fully become aware of what your past F&B comps were.......who knows how accurately host enter that information into any system and things were much less tight even a few years ago VS today

    3. from the repeated questions on this forum there are numerous people that believe a host has magic powers and that having a host can get you things well above your level of play......those threads are endless on this forum.....I am not saying that was what the OP intended, but what I am saying is casinos are looking to throttle down those expectations and the expectations of even having a host

    4. it has been made clear by those in the know (including one that answered in this thread) that host are being held more accountable for the type of offers they make and the play that matches those offers.......if the host is uneasy about extending an offer beyond a normal marketing offer they will more frequently take a pass on being a host for that player and tell them go with the marketing offer

    5. there was a lack of clarity on the part of the OP and the host and in today's casino world the player is going to "eat that" VS in the past perhaps the host eating that.......some may not like that, but that it how it is

    6. at least in my mind it appears that host are looking to get back to more of a real relationship for those that they are willing to extend themselves for and everyone else will get more of a "marketing offer" type offer and if they do get a host and do not have much of a relationship with them the host will be more of a "point of contact" VS a person to help get them extras in the way of comps

    7. based on comments I read on here because of #6 some, particularly at "medium" levels of play, no longer see a host as useful to them and they are willing to go with marketing offers and not be subjected to having expectations of play placed upon them that comes with a host

    8. I think the OP was looking to times past that are now "long past" at least in terms of the life and times of casinos and how casinos make decisions and it would have been much better to have set CLEAR expectations upfront instead of getting a "like you got in the past" type offer because I would doubt it is even clearly known what you got in the past

    but the reality is that low playing them is not going to make anything clear for the host or the casino as others have pointed out.....if you have other properties and offers and host to work with I hope that works well for you, but I would suggest more clarity on the part of expectations both from you and of you in the future least you run low on places to play in the future

    I am not passing judgement on how the OP decided to handle things, but I am saying that for others that are reading this thread and looking at a marketing offer and perhaps only slightly more from an unknown host and as an unknown player if you set expectations up front then there should be a lot less confusion down the road and if you have confusion while on the property making no contact with the host and low playing will not work in your favor period....this is just IMO how it is going to be until it changes.....and it will probably not change for the better for players
     
  11. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    I will agree that not spelling out what RFB means is a problem.

    As to taking your business elsewhere, one of the following may happen:

    A) They will not notice you left at all

    B) They will look at each other and say - See, I told you he was not worth it.

    C) They actually contact you to see why you left and how they can get you back. Right now, they do not know why you left.

    I will put my money on option A. Cold day in hell option C will come into play.

    So, if you find something you like better, then by all means go for it. But do it for YOU, not out of spite for the idiot host(s). They don't care.
     
  12. lmondun

    lmondun Low-Roller

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    some thoughts about the comp shell game

    In sum, the casinos use their fancy formulas to set comp levels, which are only vaguely understood by most players and a complete mystery to many. Meanwhile, casino marketing departments do whatever they can to portray comps in an alluring way to attract potential players. This leaves the hosts in the position of knowing the true comps but potentially competing against their own marketing departments to lure in/hold on to players. Over-promise and players (like the OP) get pissed off. Under-promise and the player may also get pissed off, book through marketing instead or jump ship altogether.

    With mLife, it really seems to me that we've been not-so-innocent bystanders to an internal tug-of-war the past several years. As the Great Recession took hold, the marketing specialists held sway and the comps were often over-the-top. Then the bean-counters got control and comps were cut way back, plus shifted more aggressively to a strict point-based system. Now, maybe, the hosts are resurgent? Will be interesting to see how it plays out over the next few months.
     
  13. VegasBJ

    VegasBJ VIP Whale

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    Good post. Internal tug of war sums it up well.
     
  14. Someone

    Someone High-Roller

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    the way I interpreted what was posted by another member in a different thread was that casinos seem to be cutting back on who they offer the services of a host to especially at what might be considered "mid level" play (probably high play to many, but small to some others)

    the hosts are going to be more accountable for the comps handed out relative to play and so a player that is at a level where they get decent marketing offers, but they do not play with a great deal of variance especially to the upside will probably find the services of a host not much more than marketing offers

    players like the OP that have had the services of a host in the past, but only make infrequent trips and that do not have a real "relationship" with a host will now be watched more closely and a host will be more of a benefit to them if their play stays at a similar level (or higher) to their past trips and then they get things comped on the back end....if their play slips lower they may find themselves hearing from their host that the "marketing offer" type offer is all that can be done this trip unless a "relationship" is being built up

    players at a mid level of play that have had a host in the past, but that had a great deal of variance in play to the up and especially the down side may find themselves being referred to marketing offers pretty much exclusively unless they are willing to set a limit of play and play closer to that level pretty much all the time or until they have a stronger "relationship"

    I do not see it so much as a struggle between the marketing department and host as it is a struggle between the tightening of comps overall and wanting the remaining host to concentrate on players that have the ability to always play at the expected level or higher and the rare times they do play at a lower level or they ask for additional gratuities it will be fairly certain that they will play higher next time or get back to playing multiple trips in a row at the expected levels

    and with forums like this and with the ability to check "points" and ECs and the like online I think the mystery of comping is being lessened overall for most and there were a few that believed that a host was a way around that "fixed" point system and more specifically a host was a way to get over-comped pretty much every time and it was probably the host as much as anyone that said hey lets get back to those we can build a "relationship" with and that are worth the risk of some variance in play VS those that seem to view us as the never ending comp machine especially in times of lower play AND in times of much higher play

    "hey can you cover me this one time" followed by "hey I played really big this time you should be hooking me up"......lets face it the casinos are the ones looking to get hooked up with your money not to comp you like crazy for up and down mid level play
     
  15. lmondun

    lmondun Low-Roller

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    Personally, I'm a hosted mid-level player with a consistent play history and frequency of visits over many years, and what you describe is what I'm seeing now too. I do sense ongoing frustration from my hosts regarding how the marketing offers impact the expectations of players, but your take on the underlying approach seems on target to me.

    For those willing to invest some effort to understand the point systems, I agree. But easy access to the information certainly does not equate to understanding in many cases, as many posts in this forum attest. With mLife, the perpetual problems with their website certainly add to the confusion too.
     
  16. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    dude, the RFB thing was a simple misunderstanding. neither you or the casino was necessarily wrong, you just weren't on the same page.

    the thing is, just walking away and washing your hands of them would have been fine. but you didn't just do that, you walked away and then decided to blast them on a message board because you were pissed and wanted everyone to know to watch out because they fucked you. but you didn't do anything to try to resolve the situation amicably. that's just about the dictionary definition of throwing a tantrum.
     
  17. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    Yep. What he said.
     
  18. RiddickBull

    RiddickBull VIP Whale

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    Full RFB is only for the high rollers. What you got was not a bait and switch. If you are not a high roller, don't expect full RFB.

    No offense, but 90,000 tier points in one trip is really nothing. That's a problem today. People wager a descent amount and expect to be treated like a king at mid/high tier properties. If you want to be treated like a king with a descent theo., go to hooters or Circus Circus.
     
  19. jdvegas

    jdvegas VIP Whale

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    Just an observation...

    Some are using the term "full RFB". I do not believe that phrase is used anymore - just "RFB". There is almost always an amount specified in the system on the front end, but virtually unlimited comps based on play available on the backend.
     
  20. Jordan

    Jordan Caveman

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    Would RFB be offered in a marketing "Offer" or something that your host would arrange, just curious?
     
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