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As Promised, DT BJ Research

Discussion in 'Downtown Hotels & Casinos' started by tominiowa, Mar 16, 2015.

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  1. tominiowa

    tominiowa High-Roller

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    I spent some time Friday Night and Saturday afternoon and did a survey of several casino's downtown to find for sure what has changed,
    WARNING it wasn't for the better

    Friday night I stopped at the MSS and am happy to report ALL DD BJ was 3/2 with some $5 min. I observed just one SD BJ game that paid 6/5

    Friday night and all weekend the DTG has shoe games with $5 min that pay 3/2, problem here they are seldom available and full of rookies
    which make it hard for serious players. ALL DD games on the floor were 6/5 with $10-$15 min bets. The high limit room was DD with 3/2 but it has
    raised to $50 min at all times I was there.

    Saturday afternoon the Golden Gate had 10 BJ games going. They paid 3/2 and mostly $5 min BUT, ALL games were from a CSM. To me that makes
    them completely unplayable and even worse than 6/5 rule. I again state ALL were CSM games.

    One of the most interesting places is the changes at Fremont on my Saturday afternoon visit. Here is the varied list at the time I walked thru:
    2 games that were $5 shoes that paid 6/5 One game that was $5 shoe paying 3/2 3 DD games with $5 min that paid 3/2
    2 games with CSM's with $5 min and other $3 min that paid 6/5 One SD game with $5 min that paid 6/5 One DD game $10 min with 3/2
    and last a DD with $25 min that paid 3/2 It was amazing to me the various games dealt here. Confusing really. Read rules before you sit down

    At the D on Saturday afternoon All the BJ games offered were shoe games paying 3/2 One DD game in high limit room paying 3/2 $50 min

    The LVC had $5 shoe games paying 3/2 and had a $10 DD game paying 3/2

    The Plaza had $5 shoe games paying 3/2 and DD games with $25 min paying 3/2

    California was the same as MSS Plenty of DD games with 3/2 pays and just one SD paying 6/5

    Last but not least but defiantly confusing was the 4 queens. 4 $5 shoe games paying 6/5 a DD $15 min paying 3/2 but no double after splits (DAS)
    2 $10 min shoe games paying 3/2 One SD $15 min paying 3/2 but double only 10 and 11 and last a $10 shoe game paying 3/2

    Remember this was a Friday night and Saturday observation. I did not make it to El Cortez but know they have good SD and DD games there.
    I also skipped Binions which I assume is similar to 4 queens. I have no idea about the Nugget and from past visits they have both 6/5 and 3/2 games.

    The surprise is how Fremont is so different than its sisters the MSS and California. Glad to see the Plaza and LVC have changed for the better. Sad to see the
    changes at the DTG and feel I will be moving to a new home in near future. I didn't play a single hand of BJ this trip there. In time my offers will dry up. Wife
    likes the rooms and quiet at the DTG but I have to stay where I can play and win. Probably back to the D or give Plaza another try.

    Any questions feel free to ask. I hope this ends some of the confusion out there. I was glad I took the time to take pen and pencil in hand and find
    the true facts as of these times. I realize things would change some at night and maybe better during the week. But this does show the trend.

    I also did a survey on bartop Bonus Poker in these casino's if you are interested. Look for that in near future.
     
  2. vegasvic

    vegasvic VIP Whale

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    Great info, thanks for doing this
     
  3. ExVegasLocal

    ExVegasLocal Low-Roller

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    Thanks for the report. I hope this isn't off topic. Please don't flame me, but assuming one does not count cards and assuming the dealer will reshuffle while a significant number of undealt cards remain, why does it matter whether the game uses one deck, two decks, six decks, or continuously shuffles? I've never really understood how the number of decks can affect the probability of winning/losing.
     
  4. ajp

    ajp High-Roller

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    That is what is funny, if you aren't counting, a CSM is actually slightly to the players favor.

    Before I get flamed the Wizard did the math.

    http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/10/
     
  5. LoveDowntownVegas

    LoveDowntownVegas Low-Roller

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    without typing a long explanation, just go to http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/calculator/ and modify the number of decks used to see the difference.
     
    Futbol - final game
  6. northerngirl

    northerngirl Low-Roller

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    Thanks for the detail. It is sad the invasion of the 6:5 blackjack. Many of our former favorite places we no longer play at.....Ah, good memories though.
     
  7. Larrycwhite

    Larrycwhite Tourist

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    Thanks for your research. I'll be downtown in 11 days and hope to be able to play some good BJ. I'll miss the DD at the Grand.
     
  8. LoveDowntownVegas

    LoveDowntownVegas Low-Roller

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    yep. I will make it a point to walk over to the table, possibly sit down, pull out a dime, then make a comment about 6:5 and walk away. :)
     
    Futbol - final game
  9. hail2skins

    hail2skins Low-Roller

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    Tom, what were the minimums on the main floor at the D? Were all the tables on the D's main floor CSM?
     
  10. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

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    Just a quick note on Golden Gate...yes, it's all CSMs on the main floor, but the "high limit salon" has a $15 3:2 two-deck game & 6-deck shoe (DAS permitted at both).
    Binion's is 100% 6:5 when I went through there in February.

    The Plaza $25 two-deck game will drop to $15 during the day, on weekdays.

    Thanks for the update, though!
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  11. jimboguy

    jimboguy Blubbery Whale

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    Thanks a bunch for this, Tom! I know how difficult it can be to do research while on a trip.
    I look forward to reading your VP survey soon. :thumbsup:
     
  12. topcard

    topcard Older than the Stardust!

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    Well - it does matter, but not all that much. I think it has to do with the ratio of tens/aces to other value cards and the cut card.
    That is why, if one is NOT counting cards, all other rules being equal, the CSM is mathematically the best 3:2 blackjack you can play, assuming you play basic strategy. The reason is that nothing is cut away or burned, as is done in 2-deck, 6-deck or 8-deck games - and all cards are always in play...so, the count remains effectively at zero forever at the start of each hand.

    Play around at those two links posted above to the Wizard's site.
     
    Seems like forever from now, but the flights are booked, so it counts!
  13. TomTWI

    TomTWI High-Roller

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    Thanks for the info. Feadopolus sp? should take note the Plaza could be the best place for BJ easily with a couple changes and draw players from other properties.

    Even with the best rules they would make money and fill more rooms.

    TomTWI
     
  14. bigpatpunisher

    bigpatpunisher Tourist

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    Also wanted to give thanks for the info, since I was considering adding an extra day on my upcoming trip at DTG. I'll look at MSS or Golden Gate instead.
     
  15. MikeOPensacola

    MikeOPensacola VIP Whale

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    Nice post OP, thanks for your work. :peace: :beer:
     
    Annual Summer Bliss in the Land of Milk and Honey!!!
  16. news423

    news423 Tourist

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    Have to second what mike_omera just said ... thanks very much OP for your detective work :nworthy:

    Now, I'll likely avoid playing at 4 Queens, concentrating on BJ at ElCo, LVC and MSS ... I'm looking forward to your VP report.

    Thanks again.
     
  17. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Right, for non-counters, CSM's are not a huge issue and actually lower the house edge per hand. But those on the forum, who are mostly non-counters, seem to bemoan them. The biggest problem with them is that they increase the hand rate per hour, so you may lose a bit more with a CSM vs. a shoe game with the same rules on an hourly basis. A 3:2 CSM table, however, is generally three times better than any 6:5 game, so I'm not really sure why OP would say he would prefer a 6:5 game over a 3:2 CSM game.

    Here's an example from the first hand of a shoe...

    Probability of a player BJ (in the 1 deck scenario, the 2 stands for the cards being in either order, 4 is for the number of aces, and 16 is the number of 10-value cards...the denominators represent the cards left in the deck):

    1 deck: 2*(4/52)*(16/51) = 0.04826546 = 1 in 20.71875

    8 decks: 2*(32/416)*(128/415) = 0.047451344 = 1 in 21.07422

    It's slightly easier to make blackjacks, which greatly favor the player, in a game with fewer decks. But the factor of more decks PALES in comparison to a 6:5 game. A 3:2 game with 8 decks will be a much, much, much better game than a 6:5 single deck assuming no crazy rule changes.
     
  18. tominiowa

    tominiowa High-Roller

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    I saw no CSM's at the D. They had plenty of $5 BJ shoe games.

    I do apologize for not checking out the GG high limit room. To be honest I forget they have it
     
  19. Viva Las Vegas

    Viva Las Vegas Ramblin' Gamblin' Man

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    Thanks for your survey. No Boyd downtown games permit DAS.

    Summary of Red Chip Downtown 3/2 DAS games: (From East to West)

    El Cortez Double Deck
    Downtown Grand 6 Deck
    The D 6 Deck
    4 Queens 6 Deck
    Golden Nugget 6 Deck
    Las Vegas Cub Double Deck
    Golden Gate Double Deck
    Plaza 6 Deck

    Summary of Red Chip Downtown 3/2 DAS games with no DAS: (From East to West)

    Fremont, The California and Main Street Station Double Deck

    Summary of Red Chip Downtown no 3/2 Blackjack: (From East to West)

    Binion's

    Benny is rolling in his grave.
     
  20. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    If Benny was mummified, he would have been unraveled by now I'd think.
     
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