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Table Games Are double odds really so bad?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Bazzito52, Feb 15, 2013.

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  1. Bazzito52

    Bazzito52 Low-Roller

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    There was a point of discussion on another thread concerning multiple odds in craps, and the seeming difficulty of winning money with mere double odds.

    http://www.vegasmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88987

    Not to criticize anyone’s method of play, but is 10X odds really such an advantage over double odds that they can’t be recommended?

    Let’s think for a minute:

    House advantage – combined pass line bet w/ double odds: .61%

    House advantage – combined pass line bet with 10X odds: .18%

    So, the posters are suggesting that it’s a wise decision to have to bet FIVE TIMES the bankroll to reduce the house edge by less than one half of one percent? Really?

    Might it not be more prudent to take double odds and be at the table five times longer in order to be around with money in play when a hot shoot does show? Just sayin’.

    I realize it's a matter of each player's individual style, bankroll, and comfort level, but I don't think that the player who consistently takes double odds is in any way deficient in his or her play.

    Now, here’s something that all crapshooters ought to be able agree on:

    Sam Grafstein points out in his classic The Dice Doctor, that multiple odds are a definite advantage to the COME bettor, because they are OFF on the come out roll and can’t be lost! (Have you ever seen this point in any other book on craps? Me neither!)

    I know that if I were a 10X odds bettor, I’d certainly take that advice to heart.

    BTW: The Dice Doctor is available at amazon.com or the Gambler’s Book Club and has simply the best advice possible of all crapshooters.
     
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  2. Nevada Kid

    Nevada Kid VIP Whale

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    My bankroll doesn't allow for the 10x/20x/or 100x odds, so double odds usually works fine for me.
     
  3. boxcars

    boxcars High-Roller

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    Bazzito, I am in agreement with your thoughts.

    There is a slight advantage when you increase your odds amount, but it's so inconsequential, it's hardly even worth talking about. Just because you might gain let's say one-half percent better odds... it means virtually nothing. Who cares about those fractions when we're talking real money. It's like placing the 5&9 or 4&10. Odds are terrible (at least the 4&10), but really... who cares? Winning 9 bucks for a $5 bet on the 10 is better than risking buying the 10 for $25 and paying a dollar... if you don't want to risk the $25!!

    I don't quite understand the come bets being an advantage, because it's just another pass line bet after a point has been established. Yes, if a 7 is rolled (on the come out roll), you get odds back, but flat bets are wiped away. You can always have those bets working (on) on the come-out if you want though (but you lose them if a 7 is rolled, but win whatever's on the pass line -- which is why most people don't have them on.)

    Even though the place bets are slightly worse than true odds bets on the pass line or come bets, placing numbers also results in NOT losing the bets upon a 7 on the come out (unless you call them on...)
     
  4. JDinTN

    JDinTN MIA

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    Yes it is a big advantage for those of us who take advantage of max odds. If you don't -- why care in the first place? That being said after 5 times odds it stops mattering to me because I probably wouldn't take advantage of anything higher than that.
     
  5. mike_m235

    mike_m235 Tourist

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    If you're a player who tends to play single odds, then sure, a double odds table is fine.

    For me personally, I'm trying to hit big when the table is hot, and the bigger odds increases the variance, making those times when it's hitting more significant. You're getting more action on every roll, which to me is what makes the game exciting.

    In the long run, there's very little difference in profitability. But to me there's a significant difference in fun.
     
  6. boxcars

    boxcars High-Roller

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    Definitely! Nothing like winning and playing with "house" money and being able to take advantage of more odds potential if you want the choice. 2X limits you, of course. That's why I love 3X4X5X tables or higher. Main Street Station has 20X.

    I should have clarified that in my first post. I was only referring to mathematical advantages.
     
  7. IvanBeausky

    IvanBeausky Low-Roller

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    I guess not, and this might be a bad analogy, but would you sit down at a 8/6 JOB poker machine when the one right next to it paid 9/6? There used to be a $1/100x odds table somewhere in LV awhile ago. I remember because I knew I was underrolled for 100x, but i could play the 50x (which really equates to a $5 table at 10x odds!). Like any other crap table, it is a blast when it heats up.

    I guess it just boils down to individual bankrolls.
     
  8. Electroguy563

    Electroguy563 Over-Fried Gambler

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    One of my favorite places to play among others is at the Cal. The dealers, players, and pit critters are all friendly and fun to play with.

    There were many times I wished that the odds were better than 2X. I would have made out better. Better odds would've enabled me to go for the kill so to speak when those mini- heaters show up from time to time.

    Sometimes 2X odds feel like I'm just flat-betting. That's why I like to play at MSS because when I feel it I can have the option of increasing my bets when it seems the timing is right.

    2X odds makes it harder to climb out of a hole, especially when the opportunity to do so presents itself.
     
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  9. Calder

    Calder Tourist

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    So, why wouldn't you work your come odds on the comeout? You're there to gamble. And after all, the dice don't know it's the comeout.
     
  10. C0usineddie

    C0usineddie VIP Whale

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    The trick to 2 times odd is to double your front line bet.

    So if you play $5 on the pass line then play $10. Same with your come bets.

    This gives you a bit more of a fighting chance.

    Costs a bit more to play though. i have no idea about the math and it doesnt really matter anyway because the math is based on playing perpetually which I dont do.

    I just know from what I have exerienced.
     
  11. Hogman

    Hogman VIP Whale

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    I believe that you do not do this because it is just one less roll that you subject yourself to the house advantage.
     
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  12. mike_m235

    mike_m235 Tourist

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    Flat superstion...that's the reason I don't play them on the come out. On the comeout, I'm rooting for a 7...don't want to root against myself. It's bad enough that I lose the come bets...at least I get the odds back.
     
  13. MikeOPensacola

    MikeOPensacola VIP Whale

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    Back in the day Binions had 100x odds. I tend to stick to double odds, but if I am at a table that has higher odds and the dice get hot I'll up my odds for sure.
     
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  14. jrinct1

    jrinct1 VIP Whale

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    Binions was the BEST.
     
  15. Terry Benedict

    Terry Benedict VIP Whale

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    It's house SOP to have them off because it's a good bet for the player. Think about it: why ever have them off?
     
  16. numeno

    numeno VIP Whale

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    Double odds would be bad for me and I probably wouldn't play those tables.

    3/4/5X are fine with me.

    5X are rare but a nice benefit.

    Anything higher is generally wasted on me. The rare times I'm playing at Casino Royal I do 10X+ though just because they allow it on $3 pass line bets.



    I don't really think it is "so bad", it is just annoying that the casino can't do 3/4/5x.
     
  17. jrinct1

    jrinct1 VIP Whale

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    I agree. Unless i am on a MAJOR roll wont go higher than 5 -10x.
     
  18. mike_m235

    mike_m235 Tourist

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    We have 25x locally. Passline minimum is $1. So instead of playing normally, I put down a smaller passline bet and play more on the odds. Of course we also have a $100 maximum, so that kind of kills it. Oh, and the people in the games are the walking dead.
     
  19. Tbone3336

    Tbone3336 VIP Whale

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    If your bankroll funds only double odds that is the best play no matter the table limit on odds. That being said, I would only add, no matter the table min/max and or odds min/max, I would always maximize my odds compared to my line bet. If i normally bet $10 pass line and double odds for a $30 total bet, and I found a $5 table I would place the line for $5 and take max odds on any number. I say this as I see so often, someone at a $10 table bet $15 on the line then $10 or $15 on the odds, instead of $10 line bet and $20 odd which puts the same money on the table but pays you more on a win.
     
  20. mjames1229

    mjames1229 VIP Whale

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    Some places allow this, but place a one-unit bet on the pass line, and once a point is established, you can then add to the pass line bet.

    So if I normally play $5 with $25 odds, I'd start with $5, then press the pass line to $10 and then bet my $15 or $20 odds. Pays only a couple of bucks less than at a 5x table, and you have the same action on the felt.
     
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