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Table Games 12 vs 2 or 3..also thoughts about DD BJ

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Happygirl21, Sep 23, 2013.

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  1. Happygirl21

    Happygirl21 Low-Roller

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    So these two topics are not really related but ...

    I personally never hit 12 against a 2 or 3 I find some people get pissed some don't. It was told to me way back when, " whatever you do, do it consistantly". Just wondering what the majority do. It seems pretty split down the middle to me.

    Double Deck, oh how I love this game! Sadly Atlantic City does not offer it. The Sands in Bethleham,Pa does at 50.ph with 3:2 payout. I love that there are 25. all over the place in LV. I notice that there are always open seats, are the odds that bad that bj players typically don't play it?

    Also I go by the bs rules like a multi deck game, anybody know any rules that apply specifically to dd?

    For the record I avoid single deck like the plague!
     
    AC, it's no LV but better than nothing.
    In the planning phase.
  2. thecarve

    thecarve Misanthrope

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    Hitting 12 vs. a dealer’s 2 or 3 is the correct basic strategy play. But, it’s your money on the line, so I wouldn’t care what others say. Play how you want and tell the complainers to front you the money if they want to play your cards. :Þ

    If you’re playing basic strategy, a “wrong” play is always going to be “wrong”, whether you are consistent about it or not. If you’re counting cards then there are times when you play “wrong” (from a BS standpoint) and times when you play “right” based on the composition of cards left in the deck. So, saying something is “okay” as long as you do it consistently isn't very good advice regardless of the situation.

    What do I do? If I'm just playing BS, I always hit.

    The differences in BS between DD and 6 Deck aren’t that many:

    Double 9 versus the dealer’s 2
    Double 11 vs. Ace
    Split 6-6 vs. 7
    Split 7-7 vs. 8.

    There are rules that change for the dealer standing on soft 17 (which is more prevalent on shoe games than it is on DD games) versus the dealer hitting on soft 17. But I believe the four I mentioned are the only ones that change based on going from a 6 deck game to a DD game.

    BTW, if you happen to be at El Cortez, there is no reason to avoid the single deck games - theirs actually still pay 3:2.:thumbsup:
     
  3. ams722

    ams722 Side Bet Shunner

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    Personally, I hit 12 vs. 2, but not vs. 3. That's just me. I know "technically" it's the wrong play, but it's not a big deal and the odds are pretty much even as to which you do, only favoring hitting ever so slightly.

    I find that in Vegas, it's often tourists who don't know what they're doing so they typically stand more often than hit on a 12 against a 2 and especially against a 3. Or there's always that occasional newbie who wants to hit EVERYTHING and hits the 12/13 against 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc...

    Back home in Detroit, people are more likely to play correct basic strategy because there's less tourists, more seasoned players.
     
  4. jackincols

    jackincols Guest

    I hit the 12 with a dealers 2 or 3 up.
     
  5. Tubbs

    Tubbs High-Roller

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    I play perfect basic strategy but I don't care what any other player does. In fact I rarely take that much notice of what other players are doing.

    As far as DD is concerned, there are plenty of $25 min tables but the rules are usually tightened. CET casinos typically offer dealer hits soft 17 and no double after split. Not for me.

    thecarve pointed out the strategy differences between the shoe game and DD game when dealer stands on soft 17. If you do decide to play a DD H17 game then there are a couple of other changes to factor in -

    A7 vs 2. Double rather than stand
    A8 vs 6. Double rather than stand
     
  6. rayrat

    rayrat Low-Roller

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    I'll hit with a 2 for sure. Have to think about it with a 3.
     
  7. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    This is almost right. #1, #3 and #4 are correct for 2-deck vs. 6-deck, but the Double 11vA is really a H17 vs. S17 rule. (It's VERY close in S17-2D: it's a double with 65 or 74, but just hit with 83 or 92).


    H17 vs. S17 differences:
    Double 11vA
    Double A8v6
    Double A7v2
    Surrender 17vA
    Surrender 15vA
    Surrender 88vA
     
  8. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    Thisis correct. 12v3 is painfully close and with some rules or # of decks it depends on which kind of 12 you have whether you should stand or hit. In S17-2D T+2 is a hitting combo (you've used up a T), but 7+5 is standing, etc.

    Basically you can do it either way and give up pennies at most.
     
  9. Tubbs

    Tubbs High-Roller

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    I ignored the surrender rules as surrender on DD is such a rare beast.

    Double 11 vs A is not a S17/H17 issue for DD, only 4+ deck games. Double 11 vs A is the correct play for all DD games.
     
  10. thecarve

    thecarve Misanthrope

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    These are certainly correct…but once you start taking the composition of your hand into the equation, it goes beyond basic strategy, IMO.

    And since the expected gain of doubling the 5/6 and 4/7 is greater than the expected gain of hitting 8/3 and 9/2, I would argue that basic strategy would be to always double.
     
  11. Tubbs

    Tubbs High-Roller

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    That's a new one for me. Any reference? Wizard of Odds shows 7+5 vs 3 is still a hit. Not a huge difference as you point out, but still a straightforward decision.
     
  12. Keyser Soze

    Keyser Soze Low-Roller

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    Double A3 vs 4 in any DD H17 game.

    *But someone please confirm- I drank a thousand beers last night. (Steeler fan)
     
  13. Tubbs

    Tubbs High-Roller

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    Correct, missed that one. My only defence is that DD H17 is not a game I usually play. :beer:
     
  14. Keyser Soze

    Keyser Soze Low-Roller

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    There are other people at the table?

    But seriously, ignore comments from others- it's your money!
     
  15. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    You and Keyser are correct in that if you can choose only one play, then double 11vA is correct in 2-deck. But it is composition dependent in 2D-S17.

    2-Deck - S17
    Hand&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Dealer&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hitting&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Doubling&nbsp;&nbsp;Correct&nbsp;Play<br>9,2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.15579&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.14740&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hit<br>8,3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.15626&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.15538&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hit<br>7,4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.15647&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.16339&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Double<br>6,5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.15724&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.17243&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Double<br><br>2-Deck&nbsp;-&nbsp;H17<br>Hand&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Dealer&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hitting&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Doubling&nbsp;&nbsp;Correct&nbsp;Play<br>9,2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.11604&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.14107&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Double<br>8,3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.11733&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.15087&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Double<br>7,4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.11888&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.16150&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Double<br>6,5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.12108&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.16665&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Double
     
  16. merlin

    merlin VIP Whale

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    I hit 12 vs a 2 or 3 every time , and quite often get groans from the uneducated.
     
  17. Tubbs

    Tubbs High-Roller

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    Thanks. I am going to incorporate that in my play. I like that HA as small as possible (without counting).

    This should ensure that I get a face card every time I just hit instead of double from now on. :wink2:
     
  18. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    I had the wrong game the first time. In 2D-H17 it's composition dependent. In 2D-S17 it's always a hit.

    2-Deck&nbsp;-&nbsp;H17<br>Hand&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Dealer&nbsp;&nbsp;Standing&nbsp;&nbsp;Hitting&nbsp;&nbsp;Correct&nbsp;Play<br>T,2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-0.25389&nbsp;&nbsp;-0.22693&nbsp;&nbsp;Hit<br>9,3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-0.25146&nbsp;&nbsp;-0.24429&nbsp;&nbsp;Hit<br>8,4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-0.23117&nbsp;&nbsp;-0.23194&nbsp;&nbsp;Stand<br>7,5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-0.22772&nbsp;&nbsp;-0.22833&nbsp;&nbsp;Stand<br>

    But again, this is so tiny and because basic strategy has only 'one' play for each total vs. dealer card, the BS play is to hit. Knowing this difference is only going to save you a few dimes in a lifetime.
     
  19. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    This one I didn't know. But you are correct:

    2-Deck H17
    Hand&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Dealer&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hitting&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Doubling&nbsp;&nbsp;Correct&nbsp;Play<br>A,3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.08653&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.08706&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Double<br><br>
     
  20. Tubbs

    Tubbs High-Roller

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    Unfortunately once I learn a rule/strategy I find it hard not to apply it. It's easy to get wrapped up in composition dependent strategy, when the differences are miniscule.

    I know that hitting 8+7 vs 10 at a 6 deck game, rather than surrendering, is the correct play. I always play that way. I just looked it up. The expected return is -0.499763 rather than the -0.5 for surrendering. So just over 2c gain for each $100 bet! Worth having IMO but not one to worry about at night.
     
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